Wiring irony

[ItsMeBobO]

Been trying to be aware of my loads for the show. Two years ago I had a new sub-panel installed. At present I have 7 circuits in front. Planning 5 more for this year. More than I need for sure but I want to spread it out over more GFCIs.

It was nice weather Saturday so I was outside up on the roof running the leaf blower and my wife had the toaster oven on. Leaf blower stopped... thought I had pulled it out of the plug in the garage. Down the ladder. Nope, tripped breaker.

Wife tells me the fridge is out.. huh? The fridge and garage are on the same circuit? And overhead light.
Shouldn't the fridge and toaster over have their own circuits?
Started checking all the rooms. This is what I found all on the same circuit.

Kitchen Fridge and Microwave.
Three of four counter outlets. 1 for toaster oven.
Three under kitchen cabinet lights.
Kitchen overhead light.
Back porch overhead light and two flood lights on the left and right.
Laundry room overhead light. (between the kitchen and garage.)
Dining room overhead light.
Garage overhead lights and 1 outlet of three in there.
Outside light for garage access door.


I cant believe the breaker has never flipped before or started a fire.
Got a new main panel 5 years ago so the breakers are good I presume. This house is over 30 years old and I think the overhead lights were all added later. The back porch I messed myself up as I remember the electrician I hired told me he wanted to tie in instead of running a new line and I told him ok. Never trusting that line again. Neither of us knew that line had been tied in for the microwave, dining and laundry overheads already.

Funny the last several years I have been checking the wrong circuits for overloading.
Already decided to hire an electrician to fix this mess.

[Guest guest]

I can relate to that too. Fortunately I won't have to fix the mess that some "electrician" did when they wired the house I'm moving OUT of!

But the new problem is in the new home all the outlets I was "going to tap into" for outside GFCI outlets ARE NOT on a Circuit Breaker!:shock: They are all wired to the MAIN BREAKER, which means if I want to wire a GFCI outlet outside, I have to turn off power to the entire house! The only outlets that ARE on seperate CB's and can be shut off independantly, they are all on a wall AWAY from the outside wall I'd drill through to attach the GFCI outlet!

The idea was to remove the existing INTERIOR outlet, drill a hole from inside it's box to the outside where the GFCI was to go, run the wires from the inside outlet box to the GFCI, come in and put a blank cover plate over the interior outlet box.

But since I can't shut the power off without shutting down everything in the house, that's not going to go very well. So now looks like I'm going to have to hire an electrician to come and install the outside outlets or I'm going to have to drill a hole through the wall, cut the end off a grounded extension cord and run it to the GFCI outside and plug it into the interior wall outlet from each area/room I need to have power to the outside area.

I'm still mulling this one over as to what would be the best route to get 5 GFCI outlets installed outside that I need for the controllers, plus 2 additional ones for the ponds and other things.

[Surfing4Dough]

Orville wrote:

I can relate to that too. Fortunately I won't have to fix the mess that some "electrician" did when they wired the house I'm moving OUT of!

But the new problem is in the new home all the outlets I was "going to tap into" for outside GFCI outlets ARE NOT on a Circuit Breaker!:shock: They are all wired to the MAIN BREAKER, which means if I want to wire a GFCI outlet outside, I have to turn off power to the entire house! The only outlets that ARE on seperate CB's and can be shut off independantly, they are all on a wall AWAY from the outside wall I'd drill through to attach the GFCI outlet!

The idea was to remove the existing INTERIOR outlet, drill a hole from inside it's box to the outside where the GFCI was to go, run the wires from the inside outlet box to the GFCI, come in and put a blank cover plate over the interior outlet box.

But since I can't shut the power off without shutting down everything in the house, that's not going to go very well. So now looks like I'm going to have to hire an electrician to come and install the outside outlets or I'm going to have to drill a hole through the wall, cut the end off a grounded extension cord and run it to the GFCI outside and plug it into the interior wall outlet from each area/room I need to have power to the outside area.

I'm still mulling this one over as to what would be the best route to get 5 GFCI outlets installed outside that I need for the controllers, plus 2 additional ones for the ponds and other things.

Another thought would be to forgo the GFCIs.

[travis p]

here is a simple solution to your problem THE PORTABLE POWER PANNEL


Attached files

[travis p]

100 amp 10 circuits holds 3 lor units panel 60.00 hand truck 50.00 50 amp rv plug 25.00 10 Gage wire 30.00 breakers 55.00 gang boxes and flex conduit 20.00 labor diy

[plasmadrive]

Orville wrote:

But the new problem is in the new home all the outlets I was "going to tap into" for outside GFCI outlets ARE NOT on a Circuit Breaker!:shock: They are all wired to the MAIN BREAKER, which means if I want to wire a GFCI outlet outside, I have to turn off power to the entire house! The only outlets that ARE on seperate CB's and can be shut off independantly, they are all on a wall AWAY from the outside wall I'd drill through to attach the GFCI outlet!

Orville,
You mean you main breaker feeds the outlets directly? No fuses no breakers (other then the main), nothing?
How big is your main?
How big is the wire feeding the outlets?
Since the breaker is supposed to protect the wire, if you have #12 wire feeding the outlets, which is about as large as they will take normally, you should have a 20 amp main. Don't think your whole house will run on a 20 amp breaker.

Something smells of this one.. I don't want to jinx ya but that sounds like a fire just waiting for a place to start.

[Guest guest]

plasmadrive wrote:

Orville wrote:

But the new problem is in the new home all the outlets I was "going to tap into" for outside GFCI outlets ARE NOT on a Circuit Breaker!:shock: They are all wired to the MAIN BREAKER, which means if I want to wire a GFCI outlet outside, I have to turn off power to the entire house! The only outlets that ARE on seperate CB's and can be shut off independantly, they are all on a wall AWAY from the outside wall I'd drill through to attach the GFCI outlet!

Orville,
You mean you main breaker feeds the outlets directly? No fuses no breakers (other then the main), nothing?
How big is your main?
How big is the wire feeding the outlets?
Since the breaker is supposed to protect the wire, if you have #12 wire feeding the outlets, which is about as large as they will take normally, you should have a 20 amp main. Don't think your whole house will run on a 20 amp breaker.

Something smells of this one.. I don't want to jinx ya but that sounds like a fire just waiting for a place to start.

These are MAIN POWER FEED BREAKERS, they have no amperage rating on them, all they state are MAIN POWER! That is the feed coming into breaker panel inside the house is going directly to the outlets in the home. I have NEVER seen anything like this before.

The outlets are not switched off anywhere except by the main large breaker mains switch at the top of the breaker box.

I only have a few outlets that ARE switched off by a 15 or 20 amp breaker, and these with ONE exception are on interior walls in the bedrooms.

It does make me a little nervous, like said, I have NEVER seen anything wired like this and this is a MANUFACTURED HOME, which to me, makes this a lot more dangerous than your average brick and mortar house.

I'm going to be talking this over with my Uncle who is a licensed electrician because I am a bit concerned over this issue.

[Guest guest]

The wire is the average size 16-18 gauge for the 15-20 amp outlets in the home. The main is 2 dual breaker switches at the top inside the circuit breaker panel. And no, there are no CB's, fuses or anything I could find between the main power feed and every outlet, with the exception of those by the light switches, they were the only ones that are on a CB. But the other 25 or 30 are all on the main power breakers.

If I hadn't of been trying to find the CB to shut off the power to the outlets to tap into for exterior GFCI's, I never would have found this issue.

So I'm glad I found it now before something really bad could happen down the road.

Since we just bought the home {used}, I'm going to go and have a talk with the community manager that we bought it from and tell her about this, as I'm almost 100% certain this violates electrical code. The home was built in 2005 and I know they did not wire homes like this in 2005! 1985 maybe, but not in 2005.

So I'm thinking some idiot rewired the outlets to the mains, for whatever reason they would do that I don't even have a clue. As there is absolutely NOTHING protecting these outlets with the exception of the kitchen and bathrooms having GFCI outlets in them, that's about the only protection on a few of them being tied into the GFCI, but that's still not enough in this case I'm pretty sure.

[WilliamS]

Orville wrote:

The wire is the average size 16-18 gauge for the 15-20 amp outlets in the home. The main is 2 dual breaker switches at the top inside the circuit breaker panel. And no, there are no CB's, fuses or anything I could find between the main power feed and every outlet, with the exception of those by the light switches, they were the only ones that are on a CB. But the other 25 or 30 are all on the main power breakers.

If I hadn't of been trying to find the CB to shut off the power to the outlets to tap into for exterior GFCI's, I never would have found this issue.

So I'm glad I found it now before something really bad could happen down the road.

Since we just bought the home {used}, I'm going to go and have a talk with the community manager that we bought it from and tell her about this, as I'm almost 100% certain this violates electrical code. The home was built in 2005 and I know they did not wire homes like this in 2005! 1985 maybe, but not in 2005.

So I'm thinking some idiot rewired the outlets to the mains, for whatever reason they would do that I don't even have a clue. As there is absolutely NOTHING protecting these outlets with the exception of the kitchen and bathrooms having GFCI outlets in them, that's about the only protection on a few of them being tied into the GFCI, but that's still not enough in this case I'm pretty sure.

With new code the GFCI doesnt have to be outside, it can be inside in series with other outlets. My house was built the same way, the master bathroom also controlled the outlets outside of one side of my house, the second bathroom controlled the others. I found this out by accident a few years back Im outside playing with lights and BAM darkness. Same time my girlfriend comes out saying the bathroom went dark when she was blow drying her hair! Reset breaker and lights and bathroom came to life! Try it out.

[WilliamS]

no edit sorry I see in your last paragraph you already discovered the GFCI in the kitchen and bathroom. This is how many homes that do not have a dedicated outside circuit are now wired. Im trying to find an electrician to add an outside outlet for me but on a townhouse they arent real willing.

[Steven]

Orville wrote:

I'm almost 100% certain this violates electrical code. The home was built in 2005 and I know they did not wire homes like this in 2005! 1985 maybe, but not in 2005.

No, not even in 1985! Even in a home I've seen that was wired in 1905, with a marble fuse box and knob & tube wiring, it still used a separate fuse for each circuit.

So I'm thinking some idiot rewired the outlets to the mains,

That's what I'm thinking too! I was also thinking that this is the sort of thing that the home inspector is supposed to find and write up as to be fixed before the sales contract is final. If I remember correctly, I believe the inspector removed the breaker panel cover and looked it over for problems before writing that the state of the electrical system was acceptable.

You definitely need to talk to your community manager.

The solution in the end is probably to remove the cables that go directly to the main breaker, and tie them into another circuit.

[TitusCarnathan]

unfortunately that is how are one outside receptical is connected
it is illegally connected with the bathroom receptical which is against the NEC I believe the house fell under the 2002 nec so I am not sure if it was a code then or not

[TitusCarnathan]

but 3 years ago I added my own 20 amp circuit to the outside for my display

[Guest guest]

Steven wrote:

Orville wrote:

I'm almost 100% certain this violates electrical code. The home was built in 2005 and I know they did not wire homes like this in 2005! 1985 maybe, but not in 2005.

No, not even in 1985! Even in a home I've seen that was wired in 1905, with a marble fuse box and knob & tube wiring, it still used a separate fuse for each circuit.

So I'm thinking some idiot rewired the outlets to the mains,

That's what I'm thinking too! I was also thinking that this is the sort of thing that the home inspector is supposed to find and write up as to be fixed before the sales contract is final. If I remember correctly, I believe the inspector removed the breaker panel cover and looked it over for problems before writing that the state of the electrical system was acceptable.

You definitely need to talk to your community manager.

The solution in the end is probably to remove the cables that go directly to the main breaker, and tie them into another circuit.

Actually talked to the community property licensed electrician, manufactured homes ARE WIRED DIFFERENTLY than a regular house!:shock: And the NEC code is also different for them, which really surprised me as well! I thought they'd be the same code, apparently they aren't.

All the outlets are wired in series through the GFCI's in the master bath, kitchen and secondary bath, including the one outdoor outlet that is a standard 15amp outlet.

However, I did FIND ONE that is on an outer wall in the living room I can tap into and blank out to run to a GFCI outside and then do a series run to other outlets from it and it is, fortunately, on it's own breaker, so this is what I'll be doing for the extra exterior outlets.

[TitusCarnathan]

nec 210.11©(3)Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

[TitusCarnathan]

hold on I will post the nec for the bathroom

[TitusCarnathan]

in the new code going by 550.12 E you can not have it feeding outside but mobile homes do get by some laws and it might be allowed in an older code

[Guest guest]

T110431 wrote:

nec 210.11©(3)Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

All wired in series, which I definitely thought was against code myself. Talked to my Uncle and he even said that manufactured homes are wired screwy in this manner. The kitchen GFCI is series wired to all kitchen and living room outlets, the hall bathroom GFCI is series wired to the 2nd and 3rd bedroom outlets, the master bath GFCI is series wired to all master bedroom outlets.

Each bedroom and living room all have one single outlet that IS NOT series wired to all the other outlets and can be switched off from a 20 amp breaker circuit. And only one in the Living room is switched in this manner that I can tap into and then plate it off removing that outlet completely.

Since all the controllers are not on all the time, and I use 95% LED lights, I'm hoping I can get away with just adding a few outlets from this outlet {5 controllers with dual plugs} at least for this years display. But I'm sure going to be keeping close tabs on everything to see how it goes doing it this way as a temporary measure and then have the outside outlets wired to their own breaker.

[TitusCarnathan]

Orville wrote:

T110431 wrote:

nec 210.11©(3)Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

All wired in series, which I definitely thought was against code myself. Talked to my Uncle and he even said that manufactured homes are wired screwy in this manner. The kitchen GFCI is series wired to all kitchen and living room outlets, the hall bathroom GFCI is series wired to the 2nd and 3rd bedroom outlets, the master bath GFCI is series wired to all master bedroom outlets.

Each bedroom and living room all have one single outlet that IS NOT series wired to all the other outlets and can be switched off from a 20 amp breaker circuit. And only one in the Living room is switched in this manner that I can tap into and then plate it off removing that outlet completely.

Since all the controllers are not on all the time, and I use 95% LED lights, I'm hoping I can get away with just adding a few outlets from this outlet {5 controllers with dual plugs} at least for this years display. But I'm sure going to be keeping close tabs on everything to see how it goes doing it this way as a temporary measure and then have the outside outlets wired to their own breaker.

Not sure how they get away from it unless the area the homes are built did not adopt that code which they can do that

the code 550.12 E dates back to 2002

you are not allowed to have any other devices hook into the same circuit as your bathroom circuit 550.13(e)2 does allow a receptical under the home to be connected to this branch circuit in a mobile/manfacuted home for a pipe heater which ours is connected to our small appliance one

I do not recommend doing any illegal wiring Personnaly I would say just install the new circuit now and be done with it instead of adding it to the other one (which is grandfatherd in)

The time you would put into adding it to your bathroom circuit you could have added it to your panel

and I am not sure how your area is but If it needs inspected and you added it to your bathroom circuit it would fail depening on what codes your area followes

[Guest guest]

T110431 wrote:

Orville wrote:

T110431 wrote:

nec 210.11©(3)Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

All wired in series, which I definitely thought was against code myself. Talked to my Uncle and he even said that manufactured homes are wired screwy in this manner. The kitchen GFCI is series wired to all kitchen and living room outlets, the hall bathroom GFCI is series wired to the 2nd and 3rd bedroom outlets, the master bath GFCI is series wired to all master bedroom outlets.

Each bedroom and living room all have one single outlet that IS NOT series wired to all the other outlets and can be switched off from a 20 amp breaker circuit. And only one in the Living room is switched in this manner that I can tap into and then plate it off removing that outlet completely.

Since all the controllers are not on all the time, and I use 95% LED lights, I'm hoping I can get away with just adding a few outlets from this outlet {5 controllers with dual plugs} at least for this years display. But I'm sure going to be keeping close tabs on everything to see how it goes doing it this way as a temporary measure and then have the outside outlets wired to their own breaker.

Not sure how they get away from it unless the area the homes are built did not adopt that code which they can do that

the code 550.12 E dates back to 2002

you are not allowed to have any other devices hook into the same circuit as your bathroom circuit 550.13(e)2 does allow a receptical under the home to be connected to this branch circuit in a mobile/manfacuted home for a pipe heater which ours is connected to our small appliance one

I do not recommend doing any illegal wiring Personnaly I would say just install the new circuit now and be done with it instead of adding it to the other one (which is grandfatherd in)

The time you would put into adding it to your bathroom circuit you could have added it to your panel

and I am not sure how your area is but If it needs inspected and you added it to your bathroom circuit it would fail depening on what codes your area followes

The new outside outlet IS NOT wired to the bathroom circuit, it would be wired to a SWITCHED outlet that is CB controller from the Living room and wired into the living room circuit. I would never wire into the bathroom circuit, HOWEVER, the original outside outlet that WAS FACTORY installed IS wired to the bathroom circuit!