Connecting to Multiple Locations

[CLD Kevin]

I have another project on the horizon. My city wants me to work some magic in the downtown area for the holiday Festival of Lights. Besides being a huge court yard area for 3 blocks, I’m seeing a big obstacle. They want lights throughout all trees and planters in the court yard...but its all brick and concrete. Every tree and planter does have an outlet, but I just cant run ext cords on the concrete to every location. Not only will it look ugly, but it’s a safety hazard.

One option is to use the existing power conduit (if there’s room) that connects to each planter/tree. Or maybe have the wire removed or upgraded so both power and my wire needs are in the same conduit.

Another option is to go wireless, but I would need like 40-50 wireless points. I only need 3 channels per location...maybe 6 at others. I don’t think LOR Linkers is an option because I cant put a full controller at ever location.

DMX would be a great option if I could somehow send the signal wirelessly and have something like 1 master transmitter to several small receivers and use one of those small 3-ch dmx modules to control the lights. I’ve seen 512DMX wireless units, but that’s for the all the channels from A to Z loc.

Also what about the PLC I’ve read somewhere. I believe a 4 channel unit was mention...that may work too.

LOR also mention last year about upgrading thier wireless?

Any suggestions?


Kevin

[Ponddude]

Kevin,

Sounds like a great project!

What are you looking to do with these? Run AC lights or DC lights? Will they be RGB just regular lights?

I would recommend, whatever route you go, stick with a wireless solution. Even if you use wireless DMX linkers, you do not need to use all 512 channels per universe. Each receiver could just handle the channels that it needed in the universe. It isn't much different than hard wiring it.

PLC would be an option however, I would definately check into what type of wiring the city uses. I would think that for something commercial like that they would use 3 phase wiring, and that doesn't play well with PLC. However, if they are using standard 2 phase wiring you definately could get that to work. You would have to stick with an LOR approach though because the speed of DMX doesn't work all that great over PLC either. That would than be dependent on LOR releasing their PLC stuff, which who knows when that will happen.

Another option could be to string the data cabling over the top of the trees. How high are they? You could run the cabling over the top of the tree and down to the controllers inside the tree.

Greg

[WilliamS]

Id be willing to bet there is enough room to run another cable for Data through the conduit. Issue I would see is if there are 1 or 2 sets in there already and ifs tangled how much of a challenge getting the wire though would be. I would see if they have someone on grounds that can see if they can fish a wire, regardless of Cat5 or just a 3/4 core to carry DMX or LOR singal.

Wireless would be a way but the expense would be a bit excessive for 3 channles. I cant assume they have thousand of dollars put away just for holiday display. Then again in California they just might.

I would start with someone trying to fish the wire from site to site. The only problem I see is if your using the HolidayCoro 3 Channel controllers would be that they do not have a signal repeater in them. I dont know the lenghth from the main sight you can get before it is corrupted. Im sure Dave will have that info.

My final question is even if you are using the 3 channel dimmer such as Dave's. You cant run power over DMX in that distance. Were you planning on a power supply at each tree? Something like a wall wart would be sufficent for the trees, Im just curious.

[-klb-]

There is also the challenge that I believe there is a code restriction against running 110V power and data cable in the same conduit. Probably not a big deal, unless there are code inspections to worry about, or a fire investigation after the fact... :shock:

[WilliamS]

-klb- wrote:

There is also the challenge that I believe there is a code restriction against running 110V power and data cable in the same conduit. Probably not a big deal, unless there are code inspections to worry about, or a fire investigation after the fact... :shock:

Good point,



Kevin brake out the hammer and chissel and get to work, you have 8 months

[Steven]

Ponddude wrote:

I would think that for something commercial like that they would use 3 phase wiring, and that doesn't play well with PLC. However, if they are using standard 2 phase wiring you definately could get that to work. .... That would than be dependent on LOR releasing their PLC stuff, which who knows when that will happen.

That's not the way the (proposed) LOR PLC works. It doesn't inject the signal into existing power lines, but merges power and LOR into a single (2-wire) cable. As I understand it, the LOR PLC injector has a power input, LOR network input, and an output. It doesn't inject the PLC back through the power input, like a traditional PLC system would. To work in Kevin's case, there would have to be a point that connects to the planter where the power can be disconnected and connected into an LOR injector instead.


-klb- wrote:

There is also the challenge that I believe there is a code restriction against running 110V power and data cable in the same conduit.

That is the code. It is not allowed, for good reason!

Cracker wrote:

One option is to use the existing power conduit (if there’s room) that connects to each planter/tree.

If all the conduits go to a central location, is there a possibility of replacing the existing wire with multiple circuits through each conduit, and have the controllers at one place?

[Max-Paul]

And running power and a communication cable side by side has been known to induce noise onto the comm cable. I wont say that this is a 100% show stopper, but then when you do a job for a city. Why take chances of a screw up and get the city pissed at your [Foul Language Used] poor show?

But klb's point has a lot more punch. Break a NEC rule and watch the insurance people take off and tell you tough!

[plasmadrive]

I think the code issues are something you could deal with as there are exceptions and rules that would allow it.. however, noise could be an issue for sure, but RS485 is pretty noise immune.. Here are a couple of suggestions:

1. If you can pull more wires in the conduit you could put a single controller every 5 trees and use the LOR wireless system. Conduit size may be an issue as well as locations by the time you add what you need. That would all depend on the layout of the conduits.
   
2. You could use a PLC (Power Line Carrier, NOT Programmable Logic Controller) system such as Insteon provided you don't need a lot of speed and accuracy of timing ques. Insteon is pretty good but not great. There are of course others.
   
3. You could use a wireless DMX system with small 3ch controllers and a power supply at each tree. Think Class 2
   
4. Pull a data cable into the conduit and use isolators that will give you the voltage isolation required. I believe there are several on the market. This gets you up to code as well.
   
5. Remove the 120vac source and use the wiring for Class 2 power and send that to each location along with a data cable. If that is not enough power you can still put low voltage DC class 1 power on the feeders once there is no more 120vac and add a data cable to go along side it. (Check with local codes for temporary wiring). This would only work if you are using low voltage DC lights.

My two cents worth.. hope I didn't screw that up since I can't edit and not going to redo it if I did.

[gizmomkr]

I like the data cable from tree to tree best - run it up the trunk 15 - 20 feet. But if not that, I would do something with e1.31.

802.11 is a cheap way to get dmx/ethernet out.
Seeing your style, Im sure you want RGB. I bet Ed Bryson or a dozzen other overseas people would be willing to produce a 3ch Ethernet connected dimmer.

Actually, I THINK one of the ethcon daughter boards did output Regular DMX allready, so you could just add some regular 4 channel dimmer to that.

Then you just need to convert that 1.31 back out to Serial DMX for LOR.... Or hold your breath for e1.31 in LOR. (or change to madrix or something)

[Max-Paul]

Plasmadrive,

When it comes to code. [yoda voice on] Think not! Know or know not! [yoda voice off] I know, that code is code. There are no exceptions of mixing high voltage (anything over 50V) and signal voltage, is not allowed.

[plasmadrive]

Actually I don't believe that is true. As long as the cables have insulation rated for the highest voltage in the race way it is allowed if the low voltage items are rated for class 1 wiring. Using isolators is one such way of obtaining the rating. There are also several listed low voltage controllers that are rated for class 1 wiring where they use a 0-10vdc control in the same conduit as the branch circuit feeder.

[plasmadrive]

To clarify, it is not about the source voltage be it 120 or 5 volts. It is about insulation and wiring classes that are allowed to live together.

[Max-Paul]

You have NEC code that reflects this statement addressing the voltage breakdown of the jackets?

[gizmomkr]

Im not a code guy. Im not endorsing the idea. Im not at all interested in arguing with max.
Im not even saying the interpratation of the code is correct.

All I'm saying is, I tihnk this is the code that plasmadrive is thinking of.

"300.3© Conductors of Different Systems.
(1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of circuits rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, ac circuits, and dc circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.

Exception: For solar photovoltaic systems in accordance with 690.4(.

FPN: See 725.55(A) for Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors."

[plasmadrive]

"300.3© Conductors of Different Systems.
(1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of circuits rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, ac circuits, and dc circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.

Thanks Gizmomkr. That is one section but there are others that pertain to it as well. This covers the insulation of the conductors in the conduit however.

Max, I no longer have my code book since I retired from being an electrical contractor. I never did remember all the section numbers anyway.. too much for my old brain! ha ha.. And then they keep changing the bloody thing!

[Guest Don Gillespie]

Dumb question but how far apart are the trees?? could you not run anything above??

[JHolmes]

Heylo

We're located in Nor Cal and and Azusa, Ca so let me know if you need some help!

Perhaps creating custom LOR controllers that only handle 3-4 channels and have an ELL might be most efficient?

[CLD Kevin]

The city already has white incans strings wrapped around each tree. They want me to use them with any lighting I add. Not sure if I want to use them, but if that’s what they want. It looks like about every 3 to 4 trees are on the same circuit. They are spaced about 30-40ft apart. They are not inline or in a row.

Since they want to leave the white incan strings, I’m thinking maybe RGB floods shinning up in every tree and the building/stores that surround the court yard with RGB strips, strings and wall washers. Also a 20ft xmas tree in the center.

They make a Christmas tree out of C9 bulb strings on a 12 story building. I think that would a bit too much for me to replace with RGB strings this year. Maybe that would be an added feature as the years go on.

I like the idea of using a wireless point at every tree. Power is already there...I just need to get the signal there. Having the ability to send a signal to every location wirelessly would be ideal, but having 40 ELL would be out of the question cost wise. At $150 a pop...not to mention, if it can handle that many devices?

Are there any DMX wireless devices that say I could drop just a few channels at each location and cost reasonably?

I requested some plans so I can see how the conduits run between the trees and meet with the grounds maintenance people. Maybe I’ll get lucky I can feed a few trees at a time per controller. Then I would need 10 ELL which would work.

[Charles Belcher]

I proposed a system in the downtown Dallas arts district in 2012 much like the one you are facing.

This area was one city block long and separated by a city street. There were 56 trees to have trunks and canopies wrapped with LED; 14 on one side and 42 on the other side. We specified four colors and only four channels per tree. We also specified a controller at each tree for expansion purposes.

120V outlets existed at the base of every tree and all trees were either separated by concrete or grass. Running data with the existing electrical was not an option due to code.

Wireless DMX could also been an option; however the cost would have run up even higher.

We had a similar installation at Cedar Point Park in Ohio in 2009 where we utilized wireless ethernet to cross back and forth across large concrete pathways, then converted to DMX at remote locations.


Our Dallas solution was to use LOR wireless to each tree and although there were 56 trees, 56 individual frequencies were not necessary which made the LOR system practical.

My best suggestion to you is to design the system so that it will work, then have the city find the money; rather than the city giving you a budget and you trying to find a way to make it work. If they want to do the project, they will find the money.

Charles

[Max-Paul]

Plasmadrive,

This is one I am going to have to eat crow about. I was never a code hound either. So, it appears that there have been changes that I was not aware of. Thanks for pointing out my outdated knowledge.

Someone pointed out that RS-485 is a fairly robust means of communication. I know for fact, cause we use this in a few systems at work for temperature control, Temperature recording, Vacuum, and I/O. But I suppose some of my German engineering comes out and in any of my projects. I will route comm cables and power cables in two separate conduits or open paths no closer than 12". I just hate to have to trouble shoot a sporadic problem that is caused by comm noise and a few other things.