How to go about a commercial display

[tjschroeder17]

We are family friends of owners of a garden store about 2 miles down the road from us. I ordered my first LOR controller and would like to soon begin doing commercial displays for them. Do I need to establish a contract with them and what is the process of presenting it to them? Also, how much should I charge for a 12 minute show with 48 channels? i do allthe programming and setup. If I only have 1 controller, should I buy two more and charge "rent" on them, or should they buy controllers to keep?

Any replies would be greatly appreciated as you can tell I'm new!

[Don]

tjschroeder17 wrote:

We are family friends of owners of a garden store about 2 miles down the road from us. I ordered my first LOR controller and would like to soon begin doing commercial displays for them. Do I need to establish a contract with them and what is the process of presenting it to them? Also, how much should I charge for a 12 minute show with 48 channels? i do allthe programming and setup. If I only have 1 controller, should I buy two more and charge "rent" on them, or should they buy controllers to keep?

Any replies would be greatly appreciated as you can tell I'm new!

As with sequencing there would be many ways to go about this. What's the right answer? That's something that only you can answer.

Generally speaking you want to make sure you are covered (insurance) and have the tools and materials to fix anything that might go wrong (spare equipment.)

[De Trommelslager]

tjschroeder17 wrote:

We are family friends of owners of a garden store about 2 miles down the road from us. I ordered my first LOR controller and would like to soon begin doing commercial displays for them. Do I need to establish a contract with them and what is the process of presenting it to them? Also, how much should I charge for a 12 minute show with 48 channels? i do allthe programming and setup. If I only have 1 controller, should I buy two more and charge "rent" on them, or should they buy controllers to keep?

Any replies would be greatly appreciated as you can tell I'm new!

My first question would be how good of a friend are these folks? The reason I ask is mixing business into a friendship can lead to a disaster, hard feelings and a loss of a friendship. Just something to consider.

My next question is, what are your goals with doing this? A little extra side money, career change, etc.?

From a business perspective, check on insurance requirements, business licensing requirements, and all of the other "red tape" that will come along with your venture. In other words, don't go in blind because you are likely in for a not so pleasant surprise.

As for pricing, charge as much as you can get. Seriously, if you undercut the work, the only one that wins is the customer, and even they will wind up losing down the road. You'd be doing yourself and your customers a disservice, as well as others in the industry by doing things too cheap. "What do you mean my price has doubled? You did the same last year for half!".

How much would they pay for you to do sequencing of one song? $100.00? I really don't know, and don't have a clue what the going rate is. But let's say you get the $100.00 and it takes you 15 hours to sequence that song. You are working for about $6.65 per hour. Then, if you play by the rules, you'll have to pay your taxes, insurance and other expenses out of that $6.65. For a rough guess, we'll call it 25%, which now knocks you down to $5.00 per hour. If it is a flat rate per song, then you have the risk of rework (because "there needs to be more red over there"). Something else to think about.

Setting up the display and providing the equipment can be an area that you make some money, but unless I am totally off my rocker there probably isn't a great deal of profit to be had there. Yes, money can be made or folks wouldn't be in the business of decorating. But keep in mind that it is primarily seasonal work and the businesses doing this likely have dozens of clients.

About contracts, if you are doing a job for a customer; in my mind you would be foolish to work without an agreement in writing about what you are and are not going to provide. If you don't have clearly defined boundaries, then the job will never end and you will be footing the bill for all of the curve balls that come along. And they will!

I am not in the decorating business, so take what I have stated with that in mind. Don and the others that do this stuff would certainly know much better than I about the ins and outs of making lights twinkle. However looking at the idea from a logical and practical standpoint, those are the things that would be primary concerns of mine.

Hope that helps. At least some.

[Redbirdruss]

I have some thoughts on how to determine how much to charge.
Costs:
Programming 48 Channels for 12 Minutes - I estimate that it takes me at least 4 hours per minute for sequencing = 48 Hours
Installation - I Spend at least 30 hours doing the actual installation of the lights and fixtures = 30 Hours
Element Building - Tricky one depending on what elemenst you are building. Mini-trees take me 2 hours to string. I spent about 8 hours on my wreath. 8 minitrees and a wreath = 24 Hours
Design Consultation - Picking the songs, layout, colors etc = 8 Hours
After installation Support - Fixing broken lights, Hardware/Software issues, Wind, Rain, Snow Damage 1 hour a week x 8 weeks = 8 Hours
Total = 118 Hours + 20% buffer = 170 hours
How much is your time worth? I can hire a fresh out of school basic PC Tech for about $25/hour, consultants are making minimum $80/hour.Let's use $50/hour for fun
170 hours x $50 = $8500
Add 30% for taxes/insurance and it comes to about $11K.
I would have the customer buy and own the lighting, controllers, computer equipment, etc. If they ask you to do all the purchasing, add at least a 50% markup for your time and efforts.
I am sure I missed something here but this seems to just about cover the issues I see. You may want to require a 2 year contract and just charge for any additional Sequences , set-up support etc.
Hope this helps.

[scubado]

I would start off on your own display, get to know the sequencing. This lets them see what you can or cannot do. Getting familiar with whole process first will give you better profit margins. Learning on the job on the customers dime is not a good way to start. Just my two cents worth. Good luck and welcome to the forum!

[Max-Paul]

Also do you get to put up a sign with a message that says something like "installed by XXX lighting"?
I agree with De T, how good of friends are these people? Then decide from there. And if this is your first customer, maybe cutting them some slack so you can get a display up and use it to help promote your fledgling business. Otherwise I agree with all of the above post.

[Shubb]

Total = 118 Hours + 20% buffer = 170 hours

That's a big buffer!!

[Redbirdruss]

That's what she said...

[chrisl1976]

Shubb wrote:

Total = 118 Hours + 20% buffer = 170 hours

That's a big buffer!!

FTFY-------118 total + 20% buffer = 142 hours

[chrisl1976]

I just did my first large commercial display this year for the local park district here. Its is a drive thru display with a short 5 minute show at the end. The one thing I learned this year is there was a lot to learn the first time around and I have been doing my own computerized display for 5 years now.

All the other stuff said above about insurance and dont under value your time is right on. Spell every single item you are providing out in the contract down to number of cords and other materials. Than add 10-15% more in your end figure for incidentals.

I would let them own everything. Renting it for a month a year I never figured up to be cost effective for the you or the client. Too much up front.

Installation: Make sure you have enough time to get it done before start up date and than add at least a few days for weather. Find out what exactly you can and cannot do. If you are putting lights on the building, your client may not want you drilling holes or hammering nails in their shiny walls or other structures. They may not want you running cords over side walks and such. Make sure you know ahead of time so you can design around those restrictions. Dont forget to add time if you are taking part in the tear down of the lights.

Are you doing nightly start up of the display to make sure its 100%? Dont forget to add that if you are. I spend an hour each show night to make sure the display is running smoothly.


Now to the tone of your post. This sounds like this may be your first year with LOR. If this is the case, I would not touch a commercial display without a year or two experience on your own home. There is a lot you learn from doing your own home display that you can not learn anywhere else. You can get a good feel for installing lights, building display items, how long those things take. Tricks for installation, Tools needed. Going in blind will not turn out good for you or your client.



I know your thinking, these are just Christmas lights. Only problem is they are not your lights and its not your money. Your client has certain expectation you need to meet and you need to do your best to exceed them.

One major thing I totally under-estimated this first year. The amount of stress that comes along with projects like this and spending other peoples money. I never had this much stress with my home display. Stress from stuff you can not control like vendor issues that were not huge issues before. (quality or supply ability) I needed 8 Show Time controllers for the display and did not get them till like 3 weeks before the opening night. I was almost to the point of talking to the client about other alternatives. I had some LED color issues. I'm sure we all felt some of that stress this year, but when you have a locked in set start up date, its makes you nervous. With my home display, if it does not run on Dec. 2nd and starts DEc. 4th....life goes on. When your client has spent 2k in advertising 6pm, Dec. 2nd. That show better be running at 6pm, Dec. 2nd.


In any case, good luck with your display whether it be home or commercial!!!

[Redbirdruss]

chrisl1976 wrote:

Shubb wrote:

Total = 118 Hours + 20% buffer = 170 hours

That's a big buffer!!

FTFY-------118 total + 20% buffer = 142 hours

Sorry, I meant 43% buffer

[De Trommelslager]

Sorry, I meant 43% buffer

RBRuss, no worries. You were just using the "new math"!