Changing channel order in other tracks, changes master track channel order when using groups

[heystew]

When copying a group to a new track then re-ordering channels in the new track, the old track channel order is affected. This defeats the purpose of keeping a master track. This even occurs when track is locked. Am i doing something wrong or are groups not handled properly when copied to new track? Steps to re-create - create new animation sequence with default 8 channels - Copy Unit 01.7 and Unit 01.8 to a new track - Reorder channels in Track 2 - Result = No effect on Track 1's track order - Group Unit 01.7 and Unit 01.8 in Track 1 - Copy Group to Track 2 - Reorder channels in the Group that was copied to Track 2 - Result = Channel order changes in Track 1 and Track 2. - Lock Track 1 and no impact, will still allow re-order

In movie below notice that channel order changes in both tracks.

if embedded movie doesn't work, try this http://youtu.be/e23axPAnbA8

http://youtu.be/e23axPAv/&hl=en&fs=1

[Paul Roberson]

I can duplicate this. Good catch heystew.

Following heystew's directions.......

If I make a group in track one and then duplicate it into another track (2) when I move channels around in the track 2 group it moves them in the group in track 1.

ALSO if you remove a channel from the group in track 2 it will also remove that channel from track 1. Even with track 1 locked!!!:X

If I duplicate the channels into another track before grouping them and then group the same channels in track 1 and track 2 then moving the track 2 group channels around does not bother the track 1 group.

:X


EDIT: Removing the channel from the group in track 2 will actually delete the channel from track 2 and track 1 completely. Said channel was not anywhere else in the sequence so it gets removed from the sequence completely.

[heystew]

Paul,
thank you for confirming that i wasn't loosing my mind... although that may be preferable in this case. I noticed the same thing about deleting channels, but wrote it off to user error for not choosing "remove from track". But now that i think about it, it didn't warn me.

I'm certainly glad i caught this before I did too much damage, but you are right it is troubling.

Note that if you Copy to the new track, De-Group, then Create the group again it breaks the link to the Track 1 group. This may ease the pain somewhat, but certainly defeats the purpose.
thanks again for confirming,
dave

[Paul Roberson]

Dave,

I am ticked at myself for not seeing/testing this already!

This could seriously hose importing channel configuration into an existing sequence.

Now I am trying to remember if I duplicated the whole track 1 (2010) into my track 2 (2011) before I grouped any channels.

[Paul Roberson]

Paul Roberson wrote:

Dave,

I am ticked at myself for not seeing/testing this already!

This could seriously hose importing channel configuration into an existing sequence.

Now I am trying to remember if I duplicated the whole track 1 (2010) into my track 2 (2011) before I grouped any channels.

(wipes sweat away)

Looks like Im good. I did not group anything in track 1 (2010) before duplicating the whole track into track 2 (2011).

[Paul Roberson]

This problem is still there in 3.1.0

[bob]

This is operating the way I understood the consensus to be in the thread that originally requested the feature. There was some disagreement among various people who wanted some feature like this as to exactly what it should be; the eventually agreement was that locking a track would prevent you from making changes from within that track, not to the channels that are in that track. Note similarly, for example, that you can change a channel's settings in an unlocked track even if that channel is in a locked track.

I suggest sending a request to wishlist@lightorama.com about making the way described in this thread an option.

[bob]

Also, just as a workaround, if you want to break this particular link between tracks, you could degroup and then regroup after having duplicated the track. You will then have two different groups that happen to contain the same channels, and so reordering in one will not affect reordering in the other.

[Paul Roberson]

bob wrote:

This is operating the way I understood the consensus to be in the thread that originally requested the feature. There was some disagreement among various people who wanted some feature like this as to exactly what it should be; the eventually agreement was that locking a track would prevent you from making changes from within that track, not to the channels that are in that track. Note similarly, for example, that you can change a channel's settings in an unlocked track even if that channel is in a locked track.

I suggest sending a request to wishlist@lightorama.com about making the way described in this thread an option.

That was not my understanding at all, and frankly makes 'locked' tracks useless. IMO

If channels can be re-arraigned in a locked 'master' track from another track then the "locked" track 'feature' seem pointless to me.

It was my understanding that a locked "master" track could/would protect the channel order thus protecting against undesirable channel configuration imports.

The only thing I care for a locked track to do is protect against anything that may cause undesirable out come of channel configuration imports.

[Don]

Bob, please correct me if I'm wrong ...

But the order of the channels doesn't matter on import/export of the LCC. Each channel is assigned an ID that we, as humans, don't see (unless you open the sequence in a text editor.)

Moving the channel with a track won't change that ID. Deleting a channel and adding a new one will change it.

Thus, a locked track would alert you to the fact that you are about to do something which would affect those Unit ID's, and thus, your export/import.

[Paul Roberson]

Don wrote:

Bob, please correct me if I'm wrong ...

But the order of the channels doesn't matter on import/export of the LCC. Each channel is assigned an ID that we, as humans, don't see (unless you open the sequence in a text editor.)

Moving the channel with a track won't change that ID. Deleting a channel and adding a new one will change it.

Thus, a locked track would alert you to the fact that you are about to do something which would affect those Unit ID's, and thus, your export/import.

I know you are looking for Bob to correct you, but.....

As far as I can tell the channel config import just imports them in order.

If the channel config import paid any attention to the "ID we can't see" then you should be able to add a new controller to the middle of the master track export that channel config and import it into another sequence without messing it up, but you can't.

[Paul Roberson]

bob wrote:

Also, just as a workaround, if you want to break this particular link between tracks, you could degroup and then regroup after having duplicated the track. You will then have two different groups that happen to contain the same channels, and so reordering in one will not affect reordering in the other.

I think instead of making changes to "locked track" feature it would be better if this "link between tracks" never existed.

That is what I think is the most unexpected to me. Then link the two groups had from separate tracks. Changes to the 'locked track' feature will not remove this link.

This is the what I will send to the wishlist.

[Paul Roberson]

This is what I sent to the wishlist@lightorama.com



I wish for groups of channels to not be linked together.

When I make a group of channels in one track, then copy that group to another track, I don’t want there to be a link kept between the two groups.

If for some reason there is a need for this ‘link’ maybe a ‘un-link’ group feature to break the link instead.

Thanks
Paul

[bob]

Paul Roberson wrote:

Don wrote:

Bob, please correct me if I'm wrong ...

But the order of the channels doesn't matter on import/export of the LCC. Each channel is assigned an ID that we, as humans, don't see (unless you open the sequence in a text editor.)

Moving the channel with a track won't change that ID. Deleting a channel and adding a new one will change it.

Thus, a locked track would alert you to the fact that you are about to do something which would affect those Unit ID's, and thus, your export/import.

I know you are looking for Bob to correct you, but.....

As far as I can tell the channel config import just imports them in order.

If the channel config import paid any attention to the "ID we can't see" then you should be able to add a new controller to the middle of the master track export that channel config and import it into another sequence without messing it up, but you can't.

It's more complicated than Paul describes here, but he's got the basic idea correct:

Ignoring potential complications like channel groups and shared channels and so forth, the settings of the first channel of the config file will be applied to the first channel of the sequence, those of the second to the second, and so on.

[Papa-LF]

Boy, you guys are so way above me with tracks - that I am sooo lost - and thats not normal for me. I have been using tracks since they were introduced. Is there a simplistic description and instruction on the various use of these organizing features that would help the lower folks in the food chain? Notice I said simplistic.

Tanks.

[heystew]

Papa,
there's a link to Don's tutorial on how to use a master track in this discussion thread.
http://forums.lightorama.com/view_topic.php?id=27576&forum_id=74&highlight=master+track

hope that helps,
dave

[Amie]

This issue really needs to be made public, not just here in this thread. It is a really BIG problem. All of my sequences are screwed up because of this and we don't have a light show this year because of it. An email from LOR would have been nice when this issue was first discovered on November 4th, then maybe my sequences wouldn't look like they were thrown into a blender.

[Paul Roberson]

Problem still the same in the latest release 3.1.4 and the latest beta version 3.1.112

If you want this changed please send your wishes to wishlist@lightorama.com