I need some help from a electrician type person please.

[Ralph D]

since Saturday my house is been without power due to the 9 inches of snow northern New Jersey received. I didn't actually lose power because of the snow we lost power because of the thousands of tree limbs and trees that have come down because of the unexpected early snowstorm. need less to say it's been pure mayhem for last few days.I called my electrician because I wanted to put in a back the plug on my furnace so the next time I lose power I can at least he the house. My electrician told me about a special panel that can be connected to my present electrical panel and he could connect about 40% of all of the houses things to this panel and if the power were to go out again I could simply connect my 6500 W generator to this special panel and I could run my must haves in my house. For example if it was in the winter or summer I could run my furnace or air-conditioning unit, my refrigerators, some lighting, and other odds and ends...stuff I really need to have on in a power outage. My generator is a genavic, 6500watt. I am told it's a decent generator and only bought it because of hurricane Irene. It came with 4-20 amp outlets all on their own circuits and a 30 amp twist lock circuit. what I'm trying to get at is for those of you that understand I would like to know the name of this special panel. My electrician tells me it's not called a subpanel,or a disconnect panel, but wouldn't tell me what the actual name of the panel is. I'm very interested to see what this thing is. And also for those of you that are are in this industry I was hoping for a little advice as well. This electrician wants to charge me $900 and that would be for the cost of the unit and the labor charge to connect all the appliances to this box. My electrician said it's a 4 to 6 hour job and it is very intensive because he has to trace all the wiring from the things I want on when the power goes out and then connect them to this new panel. I was hoping somebody could tell me if $900 sound like a fair price for doing this job.

[JBullard]

Its called a transfer switch. $900 sounds OK for all that

[Ralph D]

lol, I updated my question, while you're answering mine. thanks so much. good to know. he also said because of what's happening in New Jersey he wasn't able to get one for a few weeks. Does that sound like something that could really happen. Could so many people be having these installed that the distributors are out?

[ItsMeBobO]

Two winters ago. Both my neighbors powered their houses from my outlets on the porch. JM dont read this!

The two houses across the street are on a different transformer which was out in the storm. I have five 20amps on the porch, so we ran extension cords right across the road and into their houses.

What they did with them is an open secret which I wont post here. But they were able to power the blowers on their gas furnaces and the fridges for a couple bucks.

[JoeKinne]

Hate to say it but the timing is probably a little optimistic. I work at an electrical contractor in the Northwest and when we had our last multi-day area wide outage, all of the portable generators, stationary generators and transfer switches sold out at a record pace. You have to remember that most suppliers don't necessarily carry too many transfer switches, there are many different kinds and styles, they are something that normally has to be ordered and is a couple of weeks out to start with.

[rescue_653]

Try this I had a friend who runs the eight breaker version of this one and I am looking to get one for my house!
http://www.lowes.com/pd_182534-48019-30216+BRK_0__?productId=3131281&Ntt=transfer+switch&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dtransfer%2Bswitch&facetInfo=

[vipzach]

A transfer switch is great if power outages are the norm for your area.

If it is not, you can turn off your main breaker and back feed your panel with a breaker that is hooked up to your generator. Turn off all your breakers, except what is required to survive and stays under the capacity of the generator.

It is not a permanent solution, but can be done if needed.

[Ken Benedict]

Back-feeding (either through a panel or clothes dryer plug) is very discouraged. Biggest danger lies when the power comes back on and you forgot to turn off the main service disconnect; two power sources at the same time will let out the Secret Smoke and Secret Sparks that we try to keep hidden. Be careful, cautious and smart.

[beeiilll]

Being an electrician myself, I can say that your electrician friend is giving you a good deal on a transfer switch installation.
There are different types of transfer switches that can be used for just what you want to do.
I have an 10 circuit one installed in my house (used to get long outages here a quite a few years ago) that I put in so that I can run my fridge, furnace, TV, computer, and some lights off my 6500 generator that I use for jobs if need be. Here is a link to Home Depot for one that is the same as I use a lot for people: http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical/breakers-distribution-load-centers/reliance-controls/10-circuit-transfer-switch-kit-85696.html.
There are more and more "automatic" transfer setups on the market nowdays that people are wanting to install as well. These types "sense" when the power goes out, start the generator, transfer power to the generator, and even switch back to regular power when it comes on. Generac
http://www.generac.com/Residential is a fairly common name for the automatic type but there are others as well. Of course these would be more but are nice since they run the generator on a schedule to test things for maintenance so everything will work when you need it.

A transfer switch is the only way to install a generator hookup. Never let anyone tell you that you can "back feed" power into a receptacle or anyway else. That would be a sure way to kill yourself or someone else (like the power people working on the lines)!!! And you can be held acccountable if something were to happen if you tried to back feed. Very, very dangerous as well as illegal.

I'm sure that with this storm there are a ton of people buying up switches and generators like crazy (happens whenever the weather strikes) as well as I have people wanting to do this now since the storm went through and we did not even get hit here! So yes he is right in that it may take a bit before he could get the parts and install them for you.

There is a good description from Onan http://www.cumminsonan.com/residential/products/transfer that will help you understand the transfer switch and how things work.

Bill

[Ralph D]

morning everyone, and thanks for all your advice, Back feeding is something that was mentioned to me by a couple of friends but not something I want to try, I have had enough bad luck in my time so what I've learned is to do it right the first time, and you never have to second guess yourself.

[Ralph D]

So the wife and I decided to have the transfer switch installed, so it's just a matter of time when my electrician can get the parts he needs and then set aside time to get to me. In the meanwhile I have to cross my fingers, and pray between now and then that the power in the house doesn't go down again. ...... now here's another question, my electrician also mentioned to me that I should really consider moving all my plugs for outside,,, meaning all my Christmas outlets to a sub-panel, does that make sense as well? right now my electrical panel box is full, and he's even taken some breakers and had to put double breakers in some of the spots to handle my electrical needs for outside. if I'm not mistaken right now my box can handle 40 breakers,I could be wrong , And I have 12- 20 amp dedicated lines running outside. and he wants $1000 to do that job.as much as I would love to have this worked done now, I really need to pick and choose the battles it will make trying to explain to my wife.I think I'll wait on this one. But I still would like to have everybody's thoughts on this.

[beeiilll]

Well Ralph you seem to have a lot of things to look forward too with electrical projects from the sounds.

I put in a 100 amp sub panel for my display so I could run 12 - 20 amp circuits out under my front deck to power things. I kind of had to do it also since I have an old pushmatic main breaker panel in my house and the breakers are not that easy to come across.

The sub panel will make life a bit easier for you in the long run but it is not really a "have to do now" thing as long as you have enough power for the display right now.

I would think that you could install a sub panel next year and then start moving things over to it a little at a time to spread out the costs although many times we like to just "get er done" and take care of it all at one time.

If you plan on expanding your show (and who doesn't in this hobby :shock:) you will in all likelyhood need to install the sub panel at some time in the near future.
If you can get through this season without it though just do the generator transfer now and the sub later on.

That's my 2 cents!

Bill

[gizmomkr]

Ralph - I dont know your house, controller placment etc -
But if your pannel is full ( or close) it makes sense to have a sub pannel as close as you can to wherever your controllers are. Im a big fan of the setups with 1 or 2 large disconnects on the side of the house leading into a portable pannel that only comes out when you need it.

maybe 6 - 10 circuits with 50 feet of heavy (SJW I think??) direct bury cable (its thick and rubbery) and a twist lock at the end.

I also like CamLok's - but I used to work a lot of stage / concert stuff. Generators, temporary power Etc. CamLok's are probably overkill for a 2 phase house AC system. If you break into 3 phase, maybe then.

Bill - Backfeeding power, while I agree its BAD IDEA, EASY TO KILL YOURSELF. Etc. As long as you know what you are dooing its fine. If you cut your main breaker and LOCK IT OUT - its fine. If you forget, or someone else flips it back on - someone is going to get hurt.

Jumping out of a plane is incredibly risky. You could easily DIE! - but if you have training and a parachute - its a lot of fun.

[beeiilll]

gizmomkr wrote:

Bill - Backfeeding power, while I agree its BAD IDEA, EASY TO KILL YOURSELF. Etc. As long as you know what you are dooing its fine. If you cut your main breaker and LOCK IT OUT - its fine. If you forget, or someone else flips it back on - someone is going to get hurt.

Jumping out of a plane is incredibly risky. You could easily DIE! - but if you have training and a parachute - its a lot of fun.

Yes but jumping out of a plane is something you do intentionally!

I find it impossible to explain to the 2 families of guys that I knew who were killed by backfeeding power that "as long as you know what you are doing it's fine".
They were sure they knew what they were doing right till the point that it got them killed.
While it can be done with a minimum of risk, I still cannot condone it or recommend it to anyone. It is so much easier to stay safe and do things the right way that it just makes no sense to try and "play the odds" with electricity. There are too many people out there who are getting into this hobby that don't have the knowledge of electricity and we owe it to them to recommend only the safest way to run things and not take any unreasonable chances. You can't see electricity and that alone can kill someone way too easily.

And yes I have done sky diving, scuba diving, caving, racing, and a few other risky things in my life for fun as well!
We all take some risks but I would rather tell folks the safest way to enjoy things whenever I can and not educate them on something that they are better off not knowing about.

Bill

[Ralph D]

Bill,gizmomkr and everyone. Man thank you so much. yeah I can make it through this season, I'm only adding 3 new controllers to the mix this year. lol "only". what a joke. things with the budget this year and all the unexpected crap like ireen and then this storm has really taken all the fun out of prep work, so im really under the gun right now and not enough arms coming out of my body to get to everything done. I know this is off topic but man i wish my kids were yonger my girls use to be so much help with this stuff and they were so into it with me. now at 23-22 and 18 well need i say more. lol. they are the best girls in the world, just not into my lights anymore. anyway, Back to the topic at hand!
yes it can and will have wait till next year for the panel, but what is upsetting me right now, is my electrician is here right now installing a disconnect on my furnace just for an emergency in case the power goes out again before he can install the transfer case, at least I will be able to heat my house.and might I add he just told me he will not be installing the transfer box until January, and even then he said January is ifee. What a crock of crap, there's no way that there's that big of a waiting list for these parts. I think it's time to find a new electrician. so can someone tell me, when does this start becoming fun again and I can start relaxing. War does not only happen after I retire, and just have this fantastic hobby to hold onto. Or does this not happen at all.lol. Thanks everyone so much for your input and showing me the right way to do things. I really appreciate everything.
Ralph

am planning on making my subpanel connectable outside of my house so it makes it a little easier and closer to all my units. Not really sure of all the particulars yet but those of my first thoughts.

[beeiilll]

It is only as fun as you make it!!
I know I wonder as well if it will ever be fun for me again. I didn't set up the display last year due to money, health, and emotional problems that just left me without any energy or a reason to want to do it.
Now I have tendonitis, arhtritis, 2 adjacent herniated disks, and a blown knee to top it off. No work to speak of to pay the bills and my mental state is less than stellar from all things.
I'm still not certain if I am going to be able to set up things or not yet. I hate to get it part way up and then not be able to finish it but yet I do want to set it up and have the display run even if just for my own enjoyment.
So tough call as to the fun part.
You have to enjoy doing it and making the time for it as well.
Too bad you can't get your girls to help with it. Maybe have them take a try at sequencing a song they like and see what that does for their spirit and interest in the hobby?
At any rate, good luck with things and hang in there. It does seem that things do go around and get better. We all just have to get through some tough times to make us appreciate the good times all that much more.
Have a Merry Christmas and a great holiday season and treat yourself and the family to the joy of the season.

Bill

[LOR Staff]

I'm pretty handy, so I installed my transfer switch myself. I also did a 10 circuit one as well at my Father's house. The 6 circuit one is great for me and powers up most of the house - just not things like the range & A/C.

With the 10 circuit one, we tied 2 circuits together and at my parents house they can use the hot water heater too. They turn everything else off, turn on the hot water heater, let it run for about 30 mins, then turn it back off. That's enough hot water for the day.

$900 sounds OK as long as that includes the external box (that you plug the generator into), the cord set from the generator to the external box, the wiring from the external box to the transfer switch, plus the wiring the transfer switch itself into the load center.

I think 4-6 hrs is a bit high. In general the panel hook up is this for 120v stuff: Disconnect the black from the breaker. Connect that wire to the marked black wire from the transfer switch, then hook up the red wire with the same mark to the breaker. If your breakers are marked, it should be a 30 min job to wire to the load center.

The only reason I'm not screaming that you attempt it yourself is because there can be hazardous voltages in your load center EVEN WITH THE MAIN BREAKER OFF. If you have never worked in a load center, the $900 is well spent

[Steven]

(Stupid forum software deleted everything I took 10 minutes to type, so I'm not going to do it again!)

[R Weiland]

Steven wrote:

(Stupid forum software deleted everything I took 10 minutes to type, so I'm not going to do it again!)

Steven, look at the bright side, you got credit for a post