LOR Fountain Help - With video of what I want to do...

[dang8]

Hi all…



I currently have an older Sharper Image desktop fountain, and I want to build a larger version of it in my backyard. You can click this link http://youtu.be/URsMDzdwrDY to see it working and what I’m shooting for. I know it has been said that LOR can’t safely power the pumps themselves (unless DMX)… but what about solenoid valves?



I don’t know much about electronics (wiz on the computer however)… so at least to start I want to make something that is rather plug-n-play…. or explained VERY well, and cost effective (don’t have a huge budget)



If anyone can recommend some resources/links that I can research, I would be grateful!



Thanks!!

[gizmomkr]

Thats verry do-able.

You would want the pump on for the entire show - so no real reason to even tie that to LOR. But if you really want to, a lor channel could easily activate a relay that would fire the pump.

But the important part is the vlaves. The cheapest vales would probably be sprinkler valves - they are easy to find at your local home improvement store.

The only down side to sprinkler valves, is that most are designed for 24v AC. So if you wired a valve directly to the output of the controller (I DONT RECOMEND THIS) you would have to program your show with extra attention to never go above whatever % to never raise your output above 24v.

OPTION 1: So, IF you want to use controllers you allready have, be prepared to purchase and wire (1) 24v transformer to each LOR channel output - the line out of the transformer would then connect to the valve.

Option 2 - even tough intended to run 24v AC, I have had great success running sprinkler valves from DC power. Youd probably save a good bit on transformers if you used LOR DC boards with 1 transformer and connect the valves directly to the output of the LOR DC Board.

Option 3 - probably the lest number of parts : Use a standard LOR Controller - Purchase 110v Solenoid valves, and wire these directly to the controller.

I dont recall his site, but there is a guy that uses LOR to fire solenoid valves ( I think he uses 110v AC Valves) but his setup is connected to a propane tank for fire balls. The electrical parts are all the same though.

Anyway - you could do the whole thing with a pump, sprinkler valves and some PVC.

I think the most work is going to be trenching out, or building a box large enough to be a drain / reservoir to collect all the water. Or you could just spray the yard. If you didnt collect / re-use the water, you wouldn't even need a pump 20-30 PSI from your water main will make a fine fountain with some nozels or holes in PVC.

[Denis Chaput]

You would not really need a separate 24v transformer for each channel.Just use a 24 volt tansformer that would be adequate to power your amount of solenoids and have this for your main power for solenoids Just have a relay wired to the output of your LOR channel to energize it The contacts of the relay will be wired with the 24 volts to one side them the other side to the solenoid and the other side of solenoid to 24v common.

It can easily be done with 24v just what access to material do you have.

[dang8]

I like the idea of using standard sprinkler valves... but from what I have read, they can sometimes take a while to close. I'm guessing this is a avoid the water hammer affect.

Denis, This is going to be one of those ongoing projects, so I fully expect to have to order most of the stuff off the net. Your idea with the 24v sounds interesting, but I don't know anything about relays... total electronic newbie.

I was poking around ebay and found these http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Water-etc-DDB-CS-120VAC-/300366982323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ef446cb3 and they are 120vAC. Therioetically, I should be able to just connect to LOR.

[Denis Chaput]

Those look Ideal you may have to add a resistor if the load is not big enough but I doubt if you do.Less wiring if you use these solenoids you found.

[dang8]

Does anyone know if I will have to worry about the water hammer affect? If so, what is the best way to deal with it?

Eventually I will be adding some Oarsmen nozzles... I was testing a few idea using a LEGO Mindstorm setup to run the servos... but that is down the road a bit.

[JBullard]

The video in your link shows 25 fountain heads. How many were you planning for?

Using 24 volt AC sprinkler valves, you can feed 24 VAC to channels 1 - 8. Channels 9 -16 would have to have 120 VAC to power the board electronics, so a standard 16 channel board could directly control ( 8 ) 24 volt AC sprinkler valves on channels 1 - 8, with no additional transformers need.

To control water hammer, just install an air filled pocket stub on the water supply to each valve. Very easy to make out of 1/2 inch PVC with an end cap and a tee.

Since you stated you don't know very much about electronics, I would advise you seek assistance from a licensed electrician and follow all local codes since this will be an outdoor fixture mixing electricity and water.

(BTW, I have 30 years experience in the property and casualty insurance industry - so proceed with caution since you will be using products for unintended design functions and make darn sure all local codes are followed and DOCUMENTED for your own legal safety.)

Your profile doesn't mention your city or state, so local weather conditions such as freezing could be an issue.

One of our members, Bill Vanderslice in Florida has a very spectacular water show contolled by LOR. I would suggest contacting him, his website with videos is :

http://www.christmasdancingwaters.com/



Also see this thread - LOR is planning to release a 9 channel fountain controller at some point.

http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=16635&forum_id=76&highlight=fountain


A LOR ServoDog or DIO-32 card would probably be better products to explore for this application then a 120 volt 16 channel LOR controller

http://store.lightorama.com/servodog.html


http://store.lightorama.com/dio32cards.html



Maybe some of this information may help you decide the feasiblity of your project and offer some alternatives.

[JBullard]

dang8 wrote:

I like the idea of using standard sprinkler valves... but from what I have read, they can sometimes take a while to close. I'm guessing this is a avoid the water hammer affect.

Denis, This is going to be one of those ongoing projects, so I fully expect to have to order most of the stuff off the net. Your idea with the 24v sounds interesting, but I don't know anything about relays... total electronic newbie.

I was poking around ebay and found these http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Water-etc-DDB-CS-120VAC-/300366982323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ef446cb3 and they are 120vAC. Therioetically, I should be able to just connect to LOR.

A standard LOR controller does not output a standard 120 Volt AC 60 Hz sine wave. The output is PWM. Designed for lights, not a selenoid valve that will cause an electrical spike when power is removed suddenly, unless you install additional electronic componets on each selenoid.

Seek professional guidance before using this type of product connected to a standard LOR controller, especially since you say you don't know anything about relays (also applies to selenoids) and are a total electronic newbie

[JBullard]

gizmomkr wrote:

.
I dont recall his site, but there is a guy that uses LOR to fire solenoid valves ( I think he uses 110v AC Valves) but his setup is connected to a propane tank for fire balls. The electrical parts are all the same though.

You might be referring to one of my friends, Mel Welch. He does use LOR to control the fire in his displays. However, Mel does this kind of stuff for a living (fire, explosions and stuff for the movie industry) He also invented the fire effects that are used by most all rock groups for their on stage performances.

A quick video of his last years Halloween display


http://vimeo.com/7393000

And last Christmas:


http://vimeo.com/8553222

[dang8]

JBullard wrote:

A standard LOR controller does not output a standard 120 Volt AC 60 Hz sine wave. The output is PWM. Designed for lights, not a solenoid valve that will cause an electrical spike when power is removed suddenly, unless you install additional electronic componets on each solenoid.

I was doing a little research on the electrical surge and came across an article about wiring a diode in parallel with the solenoid to create a loop to dissipate the energy... could something like that work in this situation?

[-klb-]

dang8 wrote:

JBullard wrote:

A standard LOR controller does not output a standard 120 Volt AC 60 Hz sine wave.  The output is PWM.  Designed for lights, not a solenoid valve that will cause an electrical spike when power is removed suddenly, unless you install additional electronic componets on each solenoid.  

I was doing a little research on the electrical surge and came across an article about wiring a diode in parallel with the solenoid to create a loop to dissipate the energy... could something like that work in this situation?

The diode to allow the inductive current to dissipate only applies to DC situations. The question is how happy are are the valve solenoids on DC rather than AC? If they are fine, then a DC controller, with diode protection would be a good solution.

As for sprinkler valves, and their delayed shut off, they are water piloted valves. The valve is actually two valves in series. The main valve that shuts off the water is operated by water pressure. That water is controlled by a small solenoid valve. So when you release power to the valve, the drain from the valve actuation chamber closes, and water starts to fill the larger side of the diaphragm until it shuts off the main valve.