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Connecting Multiple Strings


ChristmasDude

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Hello,

Quick question. Is it ok to connect two minilight strings (http://www.christmaslightsetc.com/p/50-Red-Mini-Christmas-Lights-4-inch-Spacing-Green-Wire-Premium-Grade--17578.htm), which would then be plugged into a LOR channel? I take it then this channel would operate the two strings as one? Would this cause any issue?

Thanks for your time and response.

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As Victor states, you won't have any issues, but just to be clear... are you using LED or regular incandescent mini lights? The link you posted did not take me to the specific set of lights.

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ChristmasDude wrote:

Hi Richard,

The lights will be two strings (50 lights each) of incandescent minilights.
http://www.christmaslightsetc.com/p/50-Red-Mini-Christmas-Lights-4-inch-Spacing-Green-Wire-Premium-Grade--17578.htm

Thanks to you both for your responses.

Great. The reason I asked was because if you were using LEDs, and you seem new to LOR, then that brings up a whole other set of possible issues. Personally, I only use LEDs to conserve power.

I think you will see that with mini incandescent strings of 50 bulbs each, then you could connect a large number of strings (at least 10) onto one channel without straining it... power wise. good luck on your display.
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Thank you Richard. Yes, I am brand new to the LOR universe. Hope to upgrade my display and make it fully LOR based for December 2010. Concerning connecting minilight strings, most say the max that can be interconnected is three....but doing ten would make things simpler that is foresure....

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ChristmasDude wrote:

Concerning connecting minilight strings, most say the max that can be interconnected is three

Just to be clear... there are three limitations to keep in mind.

One is the maximum wattage you can draw from one channel of LOR. Best I recall, that is 8 amps. Someone correct me if I don't remember correctly.

A second limitation is the max wattage to be drawn by the LOR unit, either 15 amps or 30 amps depending on the model.

The 3rd limitation is the one you are referring to here. That is the max number of strings that can be connected in "SERIES" by the lighting manufacturer. This limitation is due to the size of the wire they use. Keeping in mind that the set of lights connected closest to the LOR has to carry the current of all the strings behind it. Therefore, to prevent overheating of the wires, a limitation is set. It is usually very conservative.

An example is that if a string of minis were to draw 75 watts each, then you could connect about 10 strings to one channel (assumming you don't do this on all channels which would exceed the wattage of the LOR unit.) That would total about 750 watts (roughly 6 1/4 amps).

According to the manufacturer, you probably would not be able to connect more than 3-5 strings end to end (in series), however if you wanted to still connect 10 strings to one LOR channel, you could use a multi-tap extension cord to connect several strings in parallel. Just may sure your extension cord is rated to handle the current.
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Thanks Richard. I was aware of the first two points, those are my building blocks. :D

Concerning your third point, yeah, I pretty much stick to the manufacturers suggestions as those are conservative (safe) and give me enough room to be flexible.

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Hi Richard,

I noticed your website. It says you use a lot of LED lights. I'm very interested in these. I am planning on setting up about 44 mini-trees with three strings of light each (red, green white). I was going to use incandescent lights, but they do draw a lot of power when using so many strings, say even just the 'red' ones.

I notice you say that your display runs many LED lights. I have heard that these lights have a reputation of not working well with LOR. Have you had any issues? For instance, I hear getting LEDs to fade in/out is not very straightforward vs. the incandescent lights...

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Hi Dude,
I don't have any issues with LEDs, but that is because I am familiar with the potential problems.

There are LOTS of discussions on here from last year about the pros and cons of LEDs. Often it comes down to who makes the LEDs and whether or not they are "full-wave" sets or "half-wave" sets. This is only ONE example of the differences.

See these threads to get started.

http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=18764&forum_id=80&highlight=led+fade

http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=19344&forum_id=76&highlight=led+fade

http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=19693&forum_id=25&highlight=snubber

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Richard Hamilton wrote:

There are LOTS of discussions on here from last year about the pros and cons of LEDs. Often it comes down to who makes the LEDs and whether or not they are "full-wave" sets or "half-wave" sets. This is only ONE example of the differences.

I'd like to take issue with a bit of what Richard stated. Yes, it does make a difference as to who makes the lights and what all they might include in the circuit as to whether the LED strings will survive fading and shimmering and such. That said, I don't believe it makes a difference whether the lights are half-wave or full-wave.
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George, you might have a point. There may be some full wave strings that still give issues. I'm not sure. In all the cases I have tried, they fade well without need of terminators. I think this is mainly due to the fact that since they conduct current in both directions, they generally work much better.

Last year we used over 800 strings of full wave leds on a commercial display and had on a few problems as compared to the monumental problems of using half-wave from the same manufacturer some time earlier. Yup, I know there are other factors.

It sounds like you have had a different experience?

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well I am running many mini-trees next year and if I could use LEDs on them, that would really save me quite a bit of calculation concerning power usage.

Richard, in the videos of your home Christmas light display, would use say most of those lights are LED? Are the icicle lights LED?

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Dude:

I'm a little confused. If I understand correctly, you are planning to have 44 (man that's a lot, though I've seen more) mini trees, each with a string of 100 reds, str. of 100 greens, and str. of 100 whites.

Are you:

a) planning for control of each color (red, green and white) on each tree; or

B) planning for overall control of each color for all trees at the same time?



If a) is correct, that implies you are planning for 132 LOR channels just for your mini trees. In this case, each channel would have only 1 string of 100 lights on it, and you wouldn't have to worry about overloading a channel or the cord to the lights. (You would be more concerned about paying for 9 controllers, as well as supplying power to them.)

If B) is correct, that implies you are planning for 3 LOR channels, each with 4400 mini lights on it. This would be a "no-can-do." At 1/3 amp per 100 string, this would be roughly 14.5 amps on one channel. The LOR limit per channel is 8 amps. If this is what you want [option B) above], you could break each color down into 3 groups, say, with 15 strings on one channel, 15 on another and 14 on another. This plays out to about 5 amps on each channel. But you'll probably want to split these three channels (actually nine channels since you have three groups of three colors) between multiple controllers. Why? Because if you plug three groups of one color into, say, Channels 1, 2 and 3 on one controller, you will have just reached the limit (15 amps) on that side of the controller. In this case, you would not be able to turn on anything plugged into Channels 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8, while channels 1, 2 and 3 are on.

At any rate, if you could be more specific as to what you want the end result to be (number of lights, how they're distributed, how you want to control, # of channels, etc), the answers you'll get here will be more precise and to the point.

Hope this helps.

BTW: The manufacturers usually say you can connect three strands end-to-end. This is the "rule of threes". There is another "rule of threes" that says you can "stack" the connectors at one point to be "three high". This gives you a stack of three strings, each with three strands, for a total of 900 lights (about 3 amps). Of course, rules are meant (or prone) to be broken -- I've seen stacks of 8 or 10 plugs!

Cray

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The rule of three applies to strings end to end. The fuse in the first in line string of lights has to pass all current for the other strings.

The rule of 3 is not necessarily by the manufacture. But by UL, which most electrical items adhere to their standards.

There is no limit on stacking (plugging into the back of a plug that I have ever read). The straight thru female plug is not fuse protected. If there were then this would be listed on the little tags on the lights that we all just love to remove.

The below info was taken from a post on PlanetChristmas posted by Paul Sessel in May 2008.

"The New rule was updated from this March, and will start from 2010.

Since 2009, UL label will be changed and mentioned how many sets can be connected for every different count (lights).

Old rule was 3 end to end, no matter how many counts of light.

New rule is changed to:

3A standard plug ? can run to 210W total.

Polarized plug ? can run to 420W total.

It means: includes incandescent mini lights & LED lights.

0.17A of 50L ? can connect up to 10 sets.

0.34A of 100L ? can connect up to 5 sets.

0.02A of 35L, 50L & 70L (our new LED lights) ? can connect up to 87 sets

0.04A of 100L, 120L & 150L (our new LED lights0 ? can connect up to 43 sets. "

Chuck

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Not sure if my experience is lucky or not but I have slowly been replacing incandescent with LED's over the past couple of years. Started with a mixture for HD, Lowes, Wally World, Etc. Then moved to commercial LED's from Creative Display.

The only issues I have had (besides the exploding light strings - another conversation), was the fade up/down rates of the LED's vs the LED's and incandescent. Not sure the average viewer would pick it up but once you know it's there, it is hard to ignore. Other than that, no problems here.

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ChristmasDude... Gee, you have a sharp eye.

Unfortunately that video of mine is old and crappy. I hope to have a new video this year. No, those lights are not LED. I switched in 2007 and that video was in 2006. The LEDs are much brighter and cleaner looking.

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Thanks for the update Chuck. I've thought it needed a little revamping.

What I had hoped to show was that, if one is concerned about the amount of current passing through the wire (the first set/fuse takes it all), the plugs can also be stacked.

Also, I am kinda interested in seeing how Christmasdude wants to display/control the 44 mini trees. Personally I love to see a bunch of mini trees, especially since seeing the video of all those trees travelling in a circle at what seems to be the speed of light. (Was that Demented Elf? I don't remember. Ah, well . . .)

Thanks again. I guess I need to spend some time on PC as well.

Cray

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Richard Hamilton wrote:

It sounds like you have had a different experience?

The only experience I've had that's germain to this discussion is with half-wave lights. Yes, I've toasted some by learning the hard way which store brands won't fade without self-destructing, but the overwhelming majority of the half-wave lights I've bought fade just fine. Yes, I prefer full-wave but sometimes the ol' wallet dictates otherwise.
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Thank you everyone for your replys. At the moment, the plan is for each minitree to have three light strings, red, green, clear/white, with each channel on its own color for 132 channels of fun.

It seems to me, based on my home's amp limit (150) that I will have to go the LED route. This is a lot of LEDs, so since this plan is for Christmas 2010, I will be checking LED retailers, frequently, like http://www.ledholidaylighting.com/index.aspx.

LEDs, I see, cheap to run, but expensive to buy!

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