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LED light strand limit/fading problem


Comopr2

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So the problem I'm having I'm not sure if it's a software issue, hardware issue, or combination of both.  I already sent this info to the LOR Help Desk and the manufacturer of the lights I'm using but neither one has given me an answer to the problem.  So I thought I'd reach out to the plethora of knowledge of all of you in this forum.  I'm going to cut and paste the information I typed to them as not to have to type it all over again.  

I would like to know if there is a limit on how many LED light strands can be plugged in on any single channel? I have the CTB16PC controller. The problem I am having is when I plug in 26 strands of M5 LED Warm White 70-count end to end everything works fine. The lights will fade On to Off and Off to On with no problems. As soon as I plug in the 27th strand, as the lights begin to fade On to Off or Off to On, half way through they start to flicker but still continue the fade process. But when I plug in the 28th Strand or any more after that, they no longer fade. Just On to Off or Off to On with no fade. Is this a power limitation of a single channel? (This question was answered and they said it was 8 amps)  The lights were purchased from ChristmasDesigners.com. I've reached out to them also about this issue and still waiting on a response from them in case it's a light issue limitation, even though the description of these lights do say that they are rated 4.8 Watts (0.04 amps) with a max end-to-end of 216 Watts (1.8 amps).  So with only 25 strands connected, I'm nowhere near that load per channel.  

My lights are plugged in End-to-End and they were brand new, never used before.  My initial test was 26 strands of lights and it was plugged directly into channel one of the LOR controller. This was the max lights that would function correctly. So I just ran another test this time using the actual extension cord that would normally be connected to this channel of lights, which is roughly about 40ft of SPT-1 cord. The problem now is the lights no longer fade. Just on to off or off to on. I removed one strand of lights, (25 strands, 70-count M5 LED) and the lights now fade correctly. So at this point it definitely seems to be a power issue coming from the LOR controller.   (One of the help desk technicians suggested that I plug multiple circuits into the same LOR controller channel)   I wasn't sure what he meant by plugging multiple circuits into the same LOR controller channel but I'm guessing he meant to suggest plugging in another strand of End-to-End lights directly off the same channel. So I plugged in a Three- way adapter to channel one and plugged in my strand of 25 in one outlet and then plugged in a strand of 5 end-to-end to another outlet and that did not help. It basically does the same thing as having more than 26 Strands plugged in End-to-End. So no matter what, I can only plug in 25 strands of these 70-count M5 LED lights per channel.  

So I know this was a long read but I hope it helps explain the issue I'm having.  

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26 strands of m5 LEDs should be less than 2 amps total load. The current draw of your specific lights should be in the specs, but from memory about 0.0008 amps per bulb.

Have you tried adding a resistive load to the 26 strands. Sometimes known a snubber. A string of incandescent lights can be used as a test.

Some LEDs can misbehave during fading, due to, among other things, not drawing enough load on the controller. Adding some resistance to the circuit can sometimes remedy that.

Search the forums for snubber. 

Some of us make our own using a 47kOhm 1 watt resistor mounted in an AC plug.

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1 hour ago, Comopr2 said:

So the problem I'm having I'm not sure if it's a software issue, hardware issue, or combination of both.  I already sent this info to the LOR Help Desk and the manufacturer of the lights I'm using but neither one has given me an answer to the problem.  So I thought I'd reach out to the plethora of knowledge of all of you in this forum.  I'm going to cut and paste the information I typed to them as not to have to type it all over again.  

I would like to know if there is a limit on how many LED light strands can be plugged in on any single channel? I have the CTB16PC controller. The problem I am having is when I plug in 26 strands of M5 LED Warm White 70-count end to end everything works fine. The lights will fade On to Off and Off to On with no problems. As soon as I plug in the 27th strand, as the lights begin to fade On to Off or Off to On, half way through they start to flicker but still continue the fade process. But when I plug in the 28th Strand or any more after that, they no longer fade. Just On to Off or Off to On with no fade. Is this a power limitation of a single channel? (This question was answered and they said it was 8 amps)  The lights were purchased from ChristmasDesigners.com. I've reached out to them also about this issue and still waiting on a response from them in case it's a light issue limitation, even though the description of these lights do say that they are rated 4.8 Watts (0.04 amps) with a max end-to-end of 216 Watts (1.8 amps).  So with only 25 strands connected, I'm nowhere near that load per channel.  

My lights are plugged in End-to-End and they were brand new, never used before.  My initial test was 26 strands of lights and it was plugged directly into channel one of the LOR controller. This was the max lights that would function correctly. So I just ran another test this time using the actual extension cord that would normally be connected to this channel of lights, which is roughly about 40ft of SPT-1 cord. The problem now is the lights no longer fade. Just on to off or off to on. I removed one strand of lights, (25 strands, 70-count M5 LED) and the lights now fade correctly. So at this point it definitely seems to be a power issue coming from the LOR controller.   (One of the help desk technicians suggested that I plug multiple circuits into the same LOR controller channel)   I wasn't sure what he meant by plugging multiple circuits into the same LOR controller channel but I'm guessing he meant to suggest plugging in another strand of End-to-End lights directly off the same channel. So I plugged in a Three- way adapter to channel one and plugged in my strand of 25 in one outlet and then plugged in a strand of 5 end-to-end to another outlet and that did not help. It basically does the same thing as having more than 26 Strands plugged in End-to-End. So no matter what, I can only plug in 25 strands of these 70-count M5 LED lights per channel.  

So I know this was a long read but I hope it helps explain the issue I'm having.  

Are you using LOR software at all?   I noticed under software you have other.  But then you have "Standard" as a license level. Sometimes "other" software may not work the LOR Controller the same as the LOR software.  

So it'd help if we know what software you are actually using to sequence your lights on the controller with, as well as the version.  That way if someone happens to be using the same software and version, they would be better suited to help you.

I wouldn't think the software would make a difference, but you never know.   And what version of the CTB16PC Controllers are you using?  generation 1, Generation 2 also known as V2 or any of the G3 Controllers and what revision firmware?    Some of these factors may/may not play a factor in your issue.

We need a bit more details on Controllers, firmware and what software you're using.

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Thanks for bringing that to my attention.  Yes, I put other for software version because my version wasn't an option in the list.  The version I am using is 3.11.2.  I'm not sure what generation my controller is.  I'll have to hook it up again to figure that out.  I know I had the latest firmware available but not sure the number right now either but I'll look it up as well.  

 

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50 minutes ago, Comopr2 said:

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.  Yes, I put other for software version because my version wasn't an option in the list.  The version I am using is 3.11.2.  I'm not sure what generation my controller is.  I'll have to hook it up again to figure that out.  I know I had the latest firmware available but not sure the number right now either but I'll look it up as well.  

 

Once connected to the controller open HU and it should take you a minute to see what gen your controller is. You can also tell by the type of status light you have. If you have the LED mini looking status indicator it will be gen 1 or 2,

Firmware version will be found in the HU as well.

JR

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6 hours ago, dibblejr said:

Once connected to the controller open HU and it should take you a minute to see what gen your controller is. You can also tell by the type of status light you have. If you have the LED mini looking status indicator it will be gen 1 or 2,

Firmware version will be found in the HU as well.

JR

I know older Generations of the CTB16PC Controllers have a RED LED indicator, don't the newer G3 CTB16PC Controller use a GREEN LED indicator?  And fromwhat I recall reading about them isn't the jumper block also in a different position on G3's?  The older units the jumper block is at the top of the PCB on the right side near the RED LED and a bunch of resistors.  At least on all my V2 CTB16PC Controllers this is how they are set up.

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17 minutes ago, Orville said:

I know older Generations of the CTB16PC Controllers have a RED LED indicator, don't the newer G3 CTB16PC Controller use a GREEN LED indicator?  And fromwhat I recall reading about them isn't the jumper block also in a different position on G3's?  The older units the jumper block is at the top of the PCB on the right side near the RED LED and a bunch of resistors.  At least on all my V2 CTB16PC Controllers this is how they are set up.

I believe so, I no longer have any controllers that are not gen3 so cant physically look at them.

One thing that most people do not realize is there were some gen3 pcb's  stamped gen2 on the card itself. However it has the led indicator as well as when you locate it in the HU it will show up as a gen3 controller. I have 4 of them.

JR

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2 hours ago, Orville said:

I know older Generations of the CTB16PC Controllers have a RED LED indicator, don't the newer G3 CTB16PC Controller use a GREEN LED indicator? 

Correct

I'm going to make a guess that if the OP is using software version 3.11 (ancient), they is also using older (pre-Gen 3) controllers.  The older controllers do not handle LEDs as well as the newer ones.  The snubber may well be the issue.  You can use almost any incandescent light (a night light, desk light, drop light, etc) as long as it is incandescent and not LED or florescent.

 

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3 hours ago, k6ccc said:

Correct

I'm going to make a guess that if the OP is using software version 3.11 (ancient), they is also using older (pre-Gen 3) controllers.  The older controllers do not handle LEDs as well as the newer ones.  The snubber may well be the issue.  You can use almost any incandescent light (a night light, desk light, drop light, etc) as long as it is incandescent and not LED or florescent.

 

I also wonder if the strands the OP is using is HALF-WAVE standard LED strands, as we all know those always needed a snubber of some kind added to make them fade on/off when using multiple strands tied together.   Seems the more you added, the more pronounced the issue of not fading properly or if at all became very prominent, along with flickering issues during fades.   Full Wave strands usually did not suffer with this issue on the older CTB16PC units.

I had both types, and if I added usually more than 10 strands of HALF-WAVE LED strands together, I ended up with fading and flickering issues.   So I always kept my strands down to about no more than 5 or 6 per channel on my V2 Controllers and everything usually worked out just fine on the HALF-WAVE LED strands.  

Again, with FULL WAVE standard LED strands I could add 10, 15, 30+ strands together, and I rarely had any issues when I was using the standard LED FULL WAVE strands, but  now that I've gone to RGB Lighting, the only use my CTB16PC Controllers are used for now are the Blow Molds that still use incandescent bulbs.  Or items that have a built in controller and I only use FULL ON/OFF ONLY lighting commands on with CTB16PC Controllers.

So the type LED Strand the OP is using may also be causing this effect as they add more strands to the mix.  And they'll definitely need a snubber to fix the issue.   I always used a single C7 bulb and socket plugged into the last HALF-WAVE LED strand that I could either keep hidden or paint the bulb flat black to hide it.  If the strands on that channel started acting up again, I knew the blacked out bulb had burned out, replaced and good to go again.

 

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5 hours ago, dibblejr said:

I believe so, I no longer have any controllers that are not gen3 so cant physically look at them.

One thing that most people do not realize is there were some gen3 pcb's  stamped gen2 on the card itself. However it has the led indicator as well as when you locate it in the HU it will show up as a gen3 controller. I have 4 of them.

JR

Those mis-marked G3's have a RED LED?   I was able to look inside mine before I posted the info on a V2, wanted to be sure I at least had the V2/G2 Controller innards correct for the placement of the jumper/header and LED before I posted my answer and question.

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First I just want to thank everyone that provided helpful suggestions.  So I took into consideration that I first needed to verify just what version controllers I had and firmware.  I took a couple screenshots of two of my controllers.  I have my two original controllers that I started with and I have two that were purchased a couple years afterwards.  The first two, which are the ones I have been using with this strand of lights are in fact the G2 boards.  The second set of controllers are G3 boards.  The firmware is the only thing I wasn't completely sure of so maybe my pictures with help.  So, I went to my neighbors house to borrow/have a strand of his C7 incandescent lights.  Made a single bulb configuration snubber and placed it at the beginning of the strands and all seemed to work as planned.  I ended up placing 32 strand together as I figured at that point it was working.  I then decided to switch out the G2 controller with my G3 controller and plugged my 32 strands in, without the snubber and BAM.....it worked just as I wanted it too.  So I guess for next seasons light show I will be moving some of my controller around to accommodate the particular light runs I have.  As for the pictures, you will notice that on the screenshot for my G2 configuration screen (Unit 1) where the Refresh button is it says 16PC-G3 Ver1.04  If this is a G2 board why does it say G3 in that window?  On the controller that is a G3 (Unit 4) in that same window the only difference is it says Ver 1.06

Unit 1.JPG

Unit 1 Board.JPG

Unit 4.JPG

Unit 4 Board.JPG

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One of the differences with G1 & G2 vs Gen 3 controllers is that the Gen 3 controllers have the snubber built in.  As for the G2 vs G3 marking on the board, remember JR talked about that yesterday.  I assume it was the first batch of the G3 boards that are marked G2 - and based on your observation, either don't have the snubber, or have a less ambitious one.

In any case, glad you got it working right.

 

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8 hours ago, Comopr2 said:

First I just want to thank everyone that provided helpful suggestions.  So I took into consideration that I first needed to verify just what version controllers I had and firmware.  I took a couple screenshots of two of my controllers.  I have my two original controllers that I started with and I have two that were purchased a couple years afterwards.  The first two, which are the ones I have been using with this strand of lights are in fact the G2 boards.  The second set of controllers are G3 boards.  The firmware is the only thing I wasn't completely sure of so maybe my pictures with help.  So, I went to my neighbors house to borrow/have a strand of his C7 incandescent lights.  Made a single bulb configuration snubber and placed it at the beginning of the strands and all seemed to work as planned.  I ended up placing 32 strand together as I figured at that point it was working.  I then decided to switch out the G2 controller with my G3 controller and plugged my 32 strands in, without the snubber and BAM.....it worked just as I wanted it too.  So I guess for next seasons light show I will be moving some of my controller around to accommodate the particular light runs I have.  As for the pictures, you will notice that on the screenshot for my G2 configuration screen (Unit 1) where the Refresh button is it says 16PC-G3 Ver1.04  If this is a G2 board why does it say G3 in that window?  On the controller that is a G3 (Unit 4) in that same window the only difference is it says Ver 1.06

Unit 1.JPG

Unit 1 Board.JPG

Unit 4.JPG

Unit 4 Board.JPG

Question:  Have you tried to update the firmware in your older ones that claim to be G3 to 1.06? 

If not, you might want to try that, the firmware is what makes things work, and so updating those 2 controllers to v.1.06 may also resolve the problem.

If it were me, I'd try seeing if the v.1.06 firmware would take and try the light test again without the snubber, if it works, then you've just solved your issue and wouldn't need to change your controllers around.   If it doesn't work, and you'll know as soon as you try to install it, because the controller, if not really a G3 will reject the download of the firmware into it.  You'll get a message like Controller not compatible with firmware you're trying to install or something to that effect.

You use the Hardware Utility to upgrade the firmware, but you have to download the firmware from the main LOR website first, save it, then use the HU to download it into the Controller.

Good Luck!

 

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Remember firmware only should be FOR the models it lists. Don't try and put V3 firmware onto V1 or (real) V2  (the ones with Red LEDS).  It should balk if you try and load the wrong one.

Also note: V3 HU has built in Dimming curves (I think they are on the Configure form). LED is an alternate  (V3 also has On/Off only for items that smoke if dimmed)

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3 hours ago, Orville said:

Question:  Have you tried to update the firmware in your older ones that claim to be G3 to 1.06? 

If not, you might want to try that, the firmware is what makes things work, and so updating those 2 controllers to v.1.06 may also resolve the problem.

If it were me, I'd try seeing if the v.1.06 firmware would take and try the light test again without the snubber, if it works, then you've just solved your issue and wouldn't need to change your controllers around.   If it doesn't work, and you'll know as soon as you try to install it, because the controller, if not really a G3 will reject the download of the firmware into it.  You'll get a message like Controller not compatible with firmware you're trying to install or something to that effect.

You use the Hardware Utility to upgrade the firmware, but you have to download the firmware from the main LOR website first, save it, then use the HU to download it into the Controller.

Good Luck!

 

Orville, the G2 stamped G3 actual controllers will take the firmware updates. All of mine have. However since the OP has resolved the problem I would advise him to not make the firmware update unless problems arise. Just how LOR states.

JR

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2 hours ago, dibblejr said:

Orville, the G2 stamped G3 actual controllers will take the firmware updates. All of mine have. However since the OP has resolved the problem I would advise him to not make the firmware update unless problems arise. Just how LOR states.

JR

Up to the OP what he decides to do.   I was just stating what I'd try.  I always update any of my LOR Items with the latest firmware that is available for them.  That just saves me trouble further down the road.  

I just figured if these have the "snubber" built in, the FW update would actually help and the OP would not have to use an extra bulb at the end of the strands.

Mainly a suggestion to the OP, again what they opt to do is entirely up to them.     Me, I just prefer to have the latest FW when it's available for my LOR items.

 

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