Help - One set of LEDs barely light other lights connected to same channel work fine

[tlogan]

I couldn't quite figure out where to put this question and haven't seen a similar issue elsewhere, so looking for any advice.

I have a GEN3 AC controller with one channel that I add a triple tap to. One line goes to a set of two connected 150 LED net lights (300 total) on an extension cord that I made and is only about 5 feet from the controller. The second line is a 50ft heavy extension cord that goes to a tree around the corner and has 300 LEDs.

After about a week of working fine, now, the two net lights barely light. The tree works fine. Yesterday I took the nets lights off the bushes and plugged them each directly into an outlet and they lit up fine. Put everything back, and they still barely light. The last test I did was unplugging the tree and the nets still didn't fully light up.

I'm thinking if it was a software issue (like a dimming curve), both would barely light. If it was the something with the controller, both would operate the same way. If it was the nets (bad fuse, or capacitor or whatever it is they use to limit voltage) they wouldn't work when plugged in directly. 

Any thoughts, ideas?

Edited December 16, 2019 by tlogan

[TheDucks]

Your direct into the outlet test is valid. Now do an in place extension cord  validation. Take a STANDARD 25-40W INCAN light bulb  (test socket or table lamp), and see if the cord  works UP TO where you plug in the LED strings with problems.

Have you set a Dimming curve using HU  or max intensity (that one bit me with 2 strings of mini strobes) on any channel 

BTW I was assuming that your Gen 3 is a Factory build (with factory heatsinks).

[Orville]

I had a couple of strands pull this on me, I had to flip their power plug 180 degrees in the LOR Channel that was controlling them.  Once I flipped the plug over 180 degrees, they worked fine.   

I've found some LED strands may work 1 or 2 seasons, then act up, sometimes they do it a lot sooner than expected.  Don't know why it happens, but it does. 

So you might want to also try the plug flip and see if that stops it, if it does, MARK the plugs on those strands. This is so you know to always insert them in the same manner every time you use them!

[tlogan]

Thanks for quick replies! Weird thing is they worked fine for about a week.

@TheDucks - yes factory built controllers. No dimming curves or max intensity. Even if I did, BOTH nets and tree would react the same way, no?

@Orville - will try flipping the plug. And I guess another extension if that doesn't work.

 

@MichRX7 And these are BRAND NEW single color nets that I FINALLY found in my local Walmart, but were all gone the last time I was in there.

[radioguy1007]

The extension cord you made - vampire plugs?  If yes, maybe one of the teeth are not making a good contact.

[tlogan]

That's a possibility, but it worked fine the first week and all of last year. I'll try swapping the extension cord tonight. At some point. After I get home from bowling. IF it's not too cold. OR snowing. Or raining. Got our first snow of the year this morning but it's turning to rain.

[radioguy1007]

As you just mentioned, rain and cold raise havoc with connections.  When water freezes it expands pushing things apart.  What was once connected is now open.  I'm so used to that here in Wisconsin.

[tlogan]

We've had a good bit of rain and some cold, but not a freeze after the rain. Yet. We don't normally get the real freezing temps unit mid-January. About 8 or 9 years ago, we went golfing on January 2nd and it was 60 degrees. The course was sloppy as all get-out, but... golfing....in January! 

[Orville]

39 minutes ago, tlogan said:

That's a possibility, but it worked fine the first week and all of last year. I'll try swapping the extension cord tonight. At some point. After I get home from bowling. IF it's not too cold. OR snowing. Or raining. Got our first snow of the year this morning but it's turning to rain.

Yes, they can work fine, but then all of a sudden they don't work as you described.  Mine I just flipped the power cords where they were connected and got the full bright LED's back, if I put it back by re-reversing it to what it was, LED's were dimly lit.  Don't know why this occurs and could never find any real reason for it, but it's what corrected my issue, which is exactly what you described in how your LED strands were working.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Orville

[tlogan]

I plan to try that, but as I think about it, I think the vampire plugs are polarized so I may not be able to switch it. If it is, I'll check the plug on the net lights. Not sure if that one is polarized. And, as I said, I try a different extension.

[Kapkirk]

3 hours ago, tlogan said:

I plan to try that, but as I think about it, I think the vampire plugs are polarized so I may not be able to switch it. If it is, I'll check the plug on the net lights. Not sure if that one is polarized. And, as I said, I try a different extension.

For the vampire plug you can check and see if the marked wire is on the right side, maybe that one was put together backwards, if not just swap the wire, same as changing the plug position.

[Orville]

13 hours ago, tlogan said:

I plan to try that, but as I think about it, I think the vampire plugs are polarized so I may not be able to switch it. If it is, I'll check the plug on the net lights. Not sure if that one is polarized. And, as I said, I try a different extension.

I have yet to see any Christmas light strand plug be polarized.  However most of my blow molds are polarized, but they use a standard 25 watt lamp bulb.  All my regular and LED Christmas strands are the same size for both prongs on the plug.

[TheDucks]

5 hours ago, Orville said:

I have yet to see any Christmas light strand plug be polarized.  However most of my blow molds are polarized, but they use a standard 25 watt lamp bulb.  All my regular and LED Christmas strands are the same size for both prongs on the plug.

Yep. I was just covering the possibilities. The other exception, are strings with built in effects (and those should never be dimmed nor pulsed)

[tlogan]

OK here's what I found.

I got home Monday night  (sorry was out all day yesterday in an off-site meeting) and it looked like the first half of the first net was brighter and the second half of the second net was brighter, but everything in the middle was pretty much dead. I also noticed that the second half of the first string on the tree (that is tapped to the same channel) was out but the rest of it was fine and fully bright. It was still very drizzly, so I though maybe it just needs to dry out, so I left everything.

It pretty much stopped raining yesterday while I was out,  and when I got I home last night, the nets seemed all pretty dead again. So I grabbed another extension cord, plugged it in and the nets LIT UP FULLY. I took the old extension cord, removed the vampire plugs, clipped off the ends of the wire and re-attached the plugs making sure the wiring was straight. Tried that extension cord again and the same dim/dead net lights.  Also I tried it the same plug of the triple tap that the new cord worked in,  just in case it's actually the triple tap,  but no go The wire looks fine so maybe one or both of vampire plugs is bad. OR there's a break inside the SPT that I can't see. For kicks, next chance I get I'll put new vampires on that wire and see what happens.

And that second half of the first string on the tree must have a different issue. I replaced both fuses but still no go. Which leads me to another question...what causes half of an LED string to go out? Again , the wiring looked fine and all the lights look OK (none bitten clean off by critters or missing or anything) and I pushed them all in to make sure they were all making contact, but they all seemed pretty tight already. 

Thanks for all the tips! At least my show seems to be running fine. (I hope that doesn't jinx it!).

[TheDucks]

MATH makes them that way.:specifically: Division

LEDs use certain voltages PER BULB., so like their older mini-light cousins, they series them in bunches  (35, 70,140)  to avoid additional parts (in the bulges).

If your string or net has more than 35 lights: look at the count of wires between bulbs. 3 (Hot, Common and the chained drop to next bulb) Transition to the NEXT group will only have 2 wired (Hot, Common) The chain gang start over after here.  One or more nodes are dead/loose in the OUT section. If these were used previous seasons, there is a high probability the LEDs have rusted (off) leads)

[tlogan]

Thanks @TheDucks - so they DO have the same issue as incans. Sounds like a plausible explanation. I'm quite familiar with this problem with incans. My wife bought a very nice wood carved Christmas piece (from Germany) that uses a string of 10 mini lights. Once the first one burned out, the rest went REALLY fast and I couldn't figure why when the long strings don't do that. Then, yes THE MATH! So, trying to find a plug-in string of 10 was a LOOONG search. Strings of 10 battery powered are EVERYWHERE. So I think I bought 10 of them. You know, just in case.

Weird thing is this a brand new strand from Walmart (Holiday Time). When I replaced the fuses, the LEDs didn't LOOK burned out. Do they not look like incans when they burn out?

[radioguy1007]

Thanks for filling us in on the bad extension.  Kind of had a feeling that was it from my own experience.  I have also seen bad wire.  Had a cable one time where they spliced the copper of one conductor by twisting the two ends together and then applying the PVC coating over the top!  Only a slight disfiguring of the insulation gave that one away.  If you own a light keeper pro you can go down the cord and if the beeping stops before getting to the socket end there is your break!  You will have to reverse the plug and do it twice to check each conductor as the hot lead is the only one detected.

LED's will show no sign of burning out.  They typically fail because of a connection - either to the wire or to the die that actually creates the light.  Socketed ones are even more troublesome as the corrosion between pin and socket becomes an open circuit.  Those are super small gold leads that are attached to pads on the die and to the wire pins that are molded around the die. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by radioguy1007

[Orville]

18 hours ago, tlogan said:

Thanks @TheDucks - so they DO have the same issue as incans. Sounds like a plausible explanation. I'm quite familiar with this problem with incans. My wife bought a very nice wood carved Christmas piece (from Germany) that uses a string of 10 mini lights. Once the first one burned out, the rest went REALLY fast and I couldn't figure why when the long strings don't do that. Then, yes THE MATH! So, trying to find a plug-in string of 10 was a LOOONG search. Strings of 10 battery powered are EVERYWHERE. So I think I bought 10 of them. You know, just in case.

Weird thing is this a brand new strand from Walmart (Holiday Time). When I replaced the fuses, the LEDs didn't LOOK burned out. Do they not look like incans when they burn out?

When a LED burns out , it is usually completely off, however, sometimes you can   The ones that I have see when one is starting to go bad, it will be very dimly lit, and within 1-2 days or less, it'll be completely out.  The ones I have found to usually burn out first and the fastest are the blue LEDs in a multi-color strand.  Don't know why, but I've replaced MORE BLUE LEDs than ANY other color.  Green LEDs seem to run in 2nd place for replacement.

But also pull the LED and check the leads, they could be rusted or corroded, also use a bright flashlight and check the socket itself, the contacts on many of them can ruse out and break off from the wire.  Just looking or pushing on the LED won't tell you this, as it may make a contact with the wire that the contact has rusted off from, but a little wind or movement, that same LED would be out again.

When I replaced LED's in strands, I also added some Automotive Dielectric Grease used for vehicle light sockets, this helps prevent corrosion and rusting of the contacts on the LED leads as well as the contacts.inside the socket.

It was a lot of work, but I started adding this dielecteric grease to any new LED strands I bought,  And I also started adding it to older strands that didn't get this treatment because I was unaware of using this for the LED light strands, so after the Holidays were done, those I knew were treated were taken down and put away, those I knew needed treatment were put aside, treated and tested, then put away.

Never had any more issues with rusted sockets or LED leads after doing this, and I used some of these strands for over 15+ years, and since I don't use them due to going into RGB, gave them away for use at my church, they've been using them for about 3 years now and still no issues with them.

Some folks don't want to spend the time it takes to do this, but I for one, will say, it was time well spent as I used these same store bought strands for many years, and they are still going strong at my church!

 

[tlogan]

Thanks to all for the tips!  Guess I'll check out that light keeper pro. I have one of those light fixers for incans, so I should upgrade that as well.

 

[TheDucks]

The  two light fixers are different, but if the old one for Incans still works...save your money for more lights.

I agree with Orville: Dielectric grease. I bought a jar from Amazon.  I dipped the ends of my SPT far enough to cover the place Vampire prongs would enter (a 'acid' brush works, just messy to store if your work area is not permanent). It is a PITA to remove-grease-insert every bulb . BUT. it is a bigger PITA when it dies in the place of use