China or USA Light Manufactures question

[Box on Rails]

Hello friends. I was just wondering if there are RGB LED lights (CCP, CCB, CCC etc.) that are manufactured in the USA? If so, who are they. Thanks..

[Mr. P]

27 minutes ago, Box on Rails said:

Hello friends. I was just wondering if there are RGB LED lights (CCP, CCB, CCC etc.) that are manufactured in the USA? If so, who are they. Thanks..

Short answer, NO. All lights are made in China and if they have an American name then that is because they were rebranded once they were ordered from China.

[PhilMassey]

Mr P unfortunately is correct. Zero lights are made here. USA "brands" are merely middle men.

[Box on Rails]

That's what I figured. 😞 thanks guys. 

[Orville]

Maybe one day they might actually be made here from research to completion, but as the others have said, nope, none made in the USA at this time.   And usually if they were "Assembled in the USA", they will say just that, "Assembled in the USA", but there are some folks that think because it states that, they are actually made here in the USA, but you will usually always find a smaller sticker that says "Made in China, Taiwan or Hong Kong" or another country outside the USA. 

USA branders try to hide that by making their "Assembled in USA" labels larger, and hope you don't notice the smaller "Made in China/Taiwan/Hong Kong" label.  Trying to make the end user{buyer} think the product was made in the USA, when it truly was not.    Just something to be aware of, I've run into many folks that swore something was  made in the USA and had to show and/or tell them the difference by searching out that other smaller label.   

Just another dirty trick to make you think you're buying American made products when you're not.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Orville
Fix typo's, grammar and a few other errors in sentence structures.

[TheDucks]

Orville

There was a time when we MADE the CHIPS (Wafers) here, but sent them abroad to be assembled into product, that then came BACK as "assembled in X with ( some  🙄) USA made parts"

[Orville]

5 hours ago, TheDucks said:

Orville

There was a time when we MADE the CHIPS (Wafers) here, but sent them abroad to be assembled into product, that then came BACK as "assembled in X with ( some  🙄) USA made parts"

I know EXACTLY what you mean by that.   I worked in manufacturing for many electronic companies that used to make some of their own I.C.'s too for things in house {meaning constructed and built in the USA}, but like most everyone else, it eventually got farmed out and made elsewhere instead of "in-house".   Perhaps one day, it may happen again, but I do have doubts that it will, at least not in what's left of my lifetime.  But you just never know how this stuff will progress.

[LOR Staff]

It is not fair to discount ALL of China as 'cheap Chinese' .   Most mfgs in China can make product and either adhere to your specifications, or will produce several different 'grades' of a product on speculation.

Take fictitious USA companies  "H" and "L".  They may both order from a Chinese manufacturer some product "X", also fictional.  In fact they could order from the exact same mfg.

"H" orders the least expensive version of "X" available from the mfg.  This product is made 'on spec' IE, the factory makes this version (and probably several others) as a kind of 'default' product.  Knowing that there are some companies in the world where price means EVERYTHING, they make it as cheap as possible.

"L" on the other hand contracts with a mfg specifying that they want "X" to be made to their higher tolerances, using these upgraded (higher price) parts, and these optional additional processes (which add durability).  

What "H" gets is low quality:  Sure, it does what it says it will do - but it may not last long, support everything it should support, etc.  "L" on the other hand gets a much higher quality product - because they specified their requirements.  If product X doesn't meet the specific high requirements, "L" doesn't pay.  If it does, 'L" paid a little more and so in the end will charge a little more.  "L" may even have negotiated with the mfg to offer some business-to-business warranty:  IE, if more than Y% of an item fails, the mfg is on the hook for the failures and will compensate "L".

So in the end what you have are 2 companies that have product X.  The product "H" sells is less expensive and offers no warranty.  The product "L" sells costs more, but is made to a higher specification.  It may even have additional features.  Because "L" contracted with the mfg for higher quality products it can offer a warranty.   Both were made in China, and may have even been made in the same factory.

Moral of the story:  Just because it's made in China does not mean it is cheap or low quality.  You can not compare the product "H" has to the product "L" has.  Yes, they may perform the same function, but they could be completely different in quality. 

 

Side bar 1:

Keep this in mind -  Never ever let price alone dictate your purchase.  "H" may sell you something for $10 and every year you have to replace 90% of them.  "L" on the other hand may sell you the same item but made to higher specifications for $22.  The failure rate may be 5% per year, but the item has a 2 year warranty. 

On the surface, "L" is more than twice the price.  Why buy something for $22 when "H" sells it for $10?   And this would be true IF you only expect to use an item once.  Yes, sometimes the cheap way is the best way.

But if you are looking to reuse the item, is it REALLY?  Think about it.  Between years 2 and 3, you will have most likely purchased from "H" twice and spent $20, and it is all but guaranteed that at the end of 2 years, your item is broken AGAIN (90% failure rate). At year 3, you have to purchase AGAIN - $30.   Sometimes you may get lucky, most of the time you will not.

If however you spent $22 at the start - even if you were unlucky and hit the failure on year two, you start year 3 with a new item - at no cost, and with something that is designed to last at least 2 years (or why would "L" offer a warranty?).  At year 3 you save (make a 'profit') of $8.  Let's say that item only lasts until year 4.  That's $18 in your pocket for that one item compared to "H".  Over 4 years:  "H" = $40 (and a high probability it is broke AGAIN - 90% failure rate).  "L" = $22 and a high probability it is probably STILL WORKING (5% failure rate)

Naturally your situation should dictate which you buy.  If you are changing a part on your car and expect to do it once in a lifetime, do you buy the $50 tool from Lang, or do you buy the same tool for $2 from Harbor Freight?  Harbor Freight for the win - use it once, throw it away.

Side bar 2:

The sad thing is that the profit margin "H" has is usually much higher than the one "L" will have.  Let's say "H" purchases their item for $5 each, and sells them for $10 each - a profit of 100%.  "L" on the other hand will spend $15 each, but can only sell (due to market pressure) at $22.  The profit there as a percentage, is around 50% - they sell a better product but make less money per sale.

[Rockhammer53]

Very interesting analysis. As a retired electrical engineer, I've looked into the mean time between failure on almost every item I have purchased for my shows since 2013 and other lighting projects since 2009.

LED technology has made extreme advances during these ensuing years, reliability has vastly improved each year as manufacturing processes have evolved.

Purchased items, specifically LED's in  various forms, from US distributors like Mouser, with their good warranty and others of that caliber, gave a failure rate of 12% during the 2009-2012 period while items purchased directly via Chinese manufactures during the same period resulted in the same range for the same period. Possible reason...they ALL were manufactured in China.

Post 2013, when I became involved with LOR products and more specifically, LED RGB strips, pixel ribbons and pixel nodes, same analysis resulted in approximately 4.5% failure rate, with one exception...RGB strips not pixel strips but the 5050 and similar type ribbons. These are very fragile and do not lend themselves to even moderate flexing without breaking contact points on the contained LED's or the substrate actually breaking due to mechanical work hardening fracture (via Microscopy examination). The failure rate exceeded 14% over 180-5 meter ribbons, (counting both entire strip and segment failure) regarding both domestically and Chinese direct purchases.

Bottom line, while I prefer to purchase within the US and expect my suppliers to give some sort of warranty, the higher prices are also a limiting factor and  SOMETIMES drive my dollar to a different, offshore source.

Yes, a warranty DOES add value as does added connectors and packaging extras however many of us in this hobby/business are able and fully capable in adding our own extras, connectors and so forth. Just a thought, maybe offering ribbons and nodes bare bones, without the extra added stuff might be an added volume route in your business model.

Being one of those weird guys that does cost/benefit analysis on their shoestrings, I suppose maybe I'm a bit over critical.

Jim

[TheDucks]

MTBF counts big when you leave something in place  and/or it is difficult to service 👍

As a former Tech for a major Telecom supplier:

It also counts when the things the company installs in the field (customers site), and you still own. 10Y MTBF was our goal

[Rockhammer53]

4 hours ago, TheDucks said:

MTBF counts big when you leave something in place  and/or it is difficult to service 👍

As a former Tech for a major Telecom supplier:

It also counts when the things the company installs in the field (customers site), and you still own. 10Y MTBF was our goal

10Y MTBF is awesome for stationary installations...in the entertainment lighting hobby/business we play in, there is an exception because <most> of us remove, package and store our lights and props. Bending and twisting sometimes not as careful as we might otherwise be, thus changing the entire paradigm. One push might be good, but another good shove makes it fit... oops...make a note to fix that later...grrrr.

Anyway, DevMike has valid points.

Jim

 

 

[Orville]

What is MTBF?  Not sure I know what that acronym means.   My guess: Manufacturers To Be Forgotten!?  Well, it's a shot in the dark as to what I would think it means. LOL

Edited October 29, 2019 by Orville

[TheDucks]

6 hours ago, Orville said:

What is MTBF?  Not sure I know what that acronym means.   My guess: Manufacturers To Be Forgotten!?  Well, it's a shot in the dark as to what I would think it means. LOL

Mean Time Between Failure

[LOR Staff]

 

On 10/28/2019 at 3:48 PM, Rockhammer53 said:

Being one of those weird guys that does cost/benefit analysis on their shoestrings, I suppose maybe I'm a bit over critical.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!  You are the informed consumer all companies wish they sold to.  You and I shop the same way:  based on VALUE not on COST.

Let's talk shoes for a moment.  My shoe of choice is a loafer (well, actually a boat shoe).  Shoes come in vastly different qualities and vastly different costs.  I discovered long ago (when I was much harder on shoes) that I could spend $20 on a pair, or $80 on a pair.  The $20 pair would fall apart after a year.  The $80 pair would fall apart in 3. 

The $20 one is the much better value - even though it is the lowest quality. 

[tlogan]

16 minutes ago, DevMike said:

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT!  You are the informed consumer all companies wish they sold to.  You and I shop the same way:  based on VALUE not on COST.

Let's talk shoes for a moment.  My shoe of choice is a loafer (well, actually a boat shoe).  Shoes come in vastly different qualities and vastly different costs.  I discovered long ago (when I was much harder on shoes) that I could spend $20 on a pair, or $80 on a pair.  The $20 pair would fall apart after a year.  The $80 pair would fall apart in 3. 

The $20 one is the much better value - even though it is the lowest quality. 

Back in the early 90s, I paid $90 for pair of wingtips and was appalled at the cost.  I've spent more than that in re-soling them and I STILL have them. The uppers look fine and I've used them for almost 20 year while I was playing in a big band and to work almost everyday for about 10 years.

[TheDucks]

18 minutes ago, DevMike said:

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT!  You are the informed consumer all companies wish they sold to.  You and I shop the same way:  based on VALUE not on COST.

Let's talk shoes for a moment.  My shoe of choice is a loafer (well, actually a boat shoe).  Shoes come in vastly different qualities and vastly different costs.  I discovered long ago (when I was much harder on shoes) that I could spend $20 on a pair, or $80 on a pair.  The $20 pair would fall apart after a year.  The $80 pair would fall apart in 3. 

The $20 one is the much better value - even though it is the lowest quality. 

You are talking: Life Cycle Costs

My body kills synthetic shoes (and watch bands) in a very short time they fall apart. The more expensive, Leather (or metal watch band) last for a few years.  And that does include the TIME, it takes to replace them each time. These days, I also consider all that 'cheap, failed, junk entering the WASTE stream (AKA Garbage).

[Rockhammer53]

I've always been the jeans and sneakers type, even while working at Boeing and NASA...riding my Harley onto Edwards AFB. It's a clip on tie and a pair of Dockers at dress up time.