Control cards and USB adapters.

[Pioerpaolo]

Goodmorning everyone. Surely this topic has already been treated, so excuse me, but unfortunately I could not find it on the forum. First of all I wanted to clarify my dispaly of 2018. Since last year I had some latency with 2 x 1602wg3 + 2 x CMB24 + 2 x Pixie16 Smart Pixel Controller + 1 PixCon16, all on a fast network with the red adapter RS485-USB-HS. This year, may God send me good, (in Italy is added, blonde and with a beautiful breast ;-)) I would like to use the PixCon16 with E1.31, while the other cards obviously leave them as they are. Do you advise me to make more LOR networks with the right USB adapters to avoid latency or leave them as before, ie all under the red adapter? The cards have all the full channels, the 1602 and the CMB24 command small figures of little importance, while the Pixie 16 has 100 bulbs on each channel. I hope I was able to describe satisfactorily, but unfortunately my English is translated online, so excuse me for the nonsense I can get out of it. Thanks from grandpa Pierpaolo happy.

[k6ccc]

You did not say how many channels were in you, but if the three pixel controllers are fairly heavily loaded, that is a lot of channels.  Even with only 50 pixels per output on all three pixel controllers, that would 7,296 channels.  That exceeds the LOR recommendation for a 1,000K enhanced network.  You also did not tell us how fast the network was running, but I'm going to guess it is 500K Enhanced since the 1602 and CMB24 controllers can't handle 1,000K and the Pixcon 16 requires Enhanced networking.  Based on a couple assumptions, I'm not surprised that you had latency issues last year.

You have a couple choices - all of which involve adding networks.  In 2018, I had 65,001 channels of E1.31, so I am a fan of E1.31.  I would move the Pixcon 16 to E1.31.  In addition to that, unless the the two Pixie controllers are lightly loaded, I would split the six LOR network controllers.  There are a couple options.  One option would be to split off the two Pixcon 16 controllers onto a separate network and run that at 1,000K speed, and use your existing network at 500K or slower for the 1602 & CMB24 controllers.  Another option would be to put each Pixie controllers on it's own 1,000K network and then a third network at slower speed for the 1602 and CMB24 controllers.

Keep in mind, that it's all about channel counts and how busy the channel change activity is.  The LOR recommendation (last I am aware) is 2,400 pixels (or 7,200 channels) on a 1,000K Enhanced network, so I would think something like 1,200 pixels on a 500K Enhanced network.  Stay under those limits.

 

[Pioerpaolo]

7 hours ago, k6ccc said:

Non hai detto quanti canali c'erano in te, ma se i controller a tre pixel sono caricati abbastanza pesantemente, sono molti i canali. Anche con solo 50 pixel per output su tutti e tre i controller pixel, sarebbero 7.296 canali. Questo supera la raccomandazione LOR per una rete potenziata da 1.000K. Inoltre non ci hai detto quanto velocemente funzionasse la rete, ma immagino che sia 500K Enhanced poiché i controller 1602 e CMB24 non possono gestire 1.000K e Pixcon 16 richiede una rete migliorata. Sulla base di un paio di ipotesi, non mi sorprende che tu abbia avuto problemi di latenza l'anno scorso.

Hai un paio di scelte - tutte implicano l'aggiunta di reti. Nel 2018, avevo 65.001 canali di E1.31, quindi sono un fan di E1.31. Sposterei il Pixcon 16 su E1.31. Inoltre, a meno che i due controller Pixie non siano leggermente caricati, dividerei i sei controller di rete LOR. Ci sono un paio di opzioni. Un'opzione sarebbe quella di dividere i due controller Pixcon 16 su una rete separata ed eseguirlo a una velocità di 1.000 K e utilizzare la rete esistente a 500 K o più lentamente per i controller 1602 e CMB24. Un'altra opzione sarebbe quella di mettere ciascun controller Pixie sulla propria rete da 1.000K e quindi su una terza rete a velocità inferiore per i controller 1602 e CMB24.

Tieni presente che tutto dipende dal conteggio dei canali e da quanto è impegnata l'attività di cambio canale. La raccomandazione LOR (ultima sono a conoscenza) è di 2.400 pixel (o 7.200 canali) su una rete Enhanced da 1.000K, quindi penso che qualcosa come 1.200 pixel su una rete Enhanced da 500K. Rimani sotto questi limiti.

 

Hi Jim, when you talk about channels, do you mean RGB, that is 3 channels? Yes the network is all 500k enhanced.

[k6ccc]

7 hours ago, Pioerpaolo said:

Hi Jim, when you talk about channels, do you mean RGB, that is 3 channels? Yes the network is all 500k enhanced.

I assume you are referring to my previous last statement.  The LOR recommendation is 2,400 pixels per 1,000K enhanced network.  A pixel uses three individual channels for a total of 7,200 channels.  This is also sometimes expressed as 2,400 RGB channels.  Devide that in half for a 500K network.

 

[Pioerpaolo]

Excuse me Jim, does it also apply to the 1602 and the cmb24?

 

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, Pioerpaolo said:

Excuse me Jim, does it also apply to the 1602 and the cmb24?

 

Dumb stuff like the CMB24 and the 1602 count the channels at the board level.  It takes a huge amount of dumb controllers to equal 1 pixie4 with 400 nodes (1200 channels)

Smart stuff counts the channels at the Node level (3 per node: RGB, with Strobe mode devices possibly using 2 more)

[Pioerpaolo]

grazie

[Pioerpaolo]

ok, then, the 2x1602 + le 2xcmb24 I put on a single comm port with black adapter, so far there are. For the pixie16, if a 1,000k network holds up to 2400 pixels, my 3 pixie16s with 1600 pixels each can then divide them by 3 ports at 1000k, with red adapter, so I also have margin, right? So if I've got it right so far, do I have to take a hub to multiply the comm ports and then set them on the computer to route the controllers? every pixie16 a different usb? quite right?

 

Thanks for your help

[TheDucks]

6 minutes ago, Pioerpaolo said:

ok, then, the 2x1602 + le 2xcmb24 I put on a single comm port with black adapter, so far there are. For the pixie16, if a 1,000k network holds up to 2400 pixels, my 3 pixie16s with 1600 pixels each can then divide them by 3 ports at 1000k, with red adapter, so I also have margin, right? So if I've got it right so far, do I have to take a hub to multiply the comm ports and then set them on the computer to route the controllers? every pixie16 a different usb? quite right?

 

Thanks for your help

Use a USB Hub (I recommend powered, but the LOR dongles don't need much by themselves).  DO NOT ever connect a LOR network to an Ethernet Hub (switch)

In LOR  control panel: Right click: Network configuration:  <<This is where you adjust speed and COM assignments.  Your sequence (channel configuration) controls which network (name) is used

💡 Label each adapter (Network name), your PC will use the same COM again.  DO NOT click the Use this for show button in HU: that changes these settings. HU will run just fine with the selected COM#

[TheDucks]

I did not fully answer the COM question before.

When you first plug in a USB dongle (LOR driver has been pre-installed), it gets assigned a COM#. You really don't care as long as it does not change (you use the same computer for the real show).

Only if you change computers, do you need to force the computer (or fiddle with the LOR Network configuration settings)

Remember, I suggested labels on the adapters.. This is why. 1) so you hook the correct controller (💡 Use different color CAT5 cables or mark the ends for each network) to the correct network ID. 2)you know what to set the newly assigned COM mapping to the desired LOR Network name.

Get in the habit of thinking in LOR Network names, not COM#

 

[Orville]

5 hours ago, TheDucks said:

I did not fully answer the COM question before.

When you first plug in a USB dongle (LOR driver has been pre-installed), it gets assigned a COM#. You really don't care as long as it does not change (you use the same computer for the real show).

Only if you change computers, do you need to force the computer (or fiddle with the LOR Network configuration settings)

Remember, I suggested labels on the adapters.. This is why. 1) so you hook the correct controller (💡 Use different color CAT5 cables or mark the ends for each network) to the correct network ID. 2)you know what to set the newly assigned COM mapping to the desired LOR Network name.

Get in the habit of thinking in LOR Network names, not COM#

 

I'm a bit confused on this comm issue TheDucks.   Are you saying that you can have 2 different networks and still use the same Comm #?  I tried that and it made me select a new Comm # for my Red Adapter.   My CTB16PC AC Controllers {V2 units} are all on Comm3 LOR Regular Network, my RGB Controllers are all on Comm4 Enhanced Aux A Network.   If both these could be on the same Comm port #, why wouldn't it allow me to do that and not have to add in that 2nd Comm port, #4?

That is if I am understanding what you saying.  Please help unconfuse me.

Thank you.

 

[k6ccc]

1 hour ago, Orville said:

I'm a bit confused on this comm issue TheDucks.   Are you saying that you can have 2 different networks and still use the same Comm #?  I tried that and it made me select a new Comm # for my Red Adapter.   My CTB16PC AC Controllers {V2 units} are all on Comm3 LOR Regular Network, my RGB Controllers are all on Comm4 Enhanced Aux A Network.   If both these could be on the same Comm port #, why wouldn't it allow me to do that and not have to add in that 2nd Comm port, #4?

That is if I am understanding what you saying.  Please help unconfuse me.

Thank you.

 

No.  Each USB to RS-485 adapter will get assigned a separate Comm Port number. 

Back in the old days, Windows would routinely assign a different Comm Port number every time the computer was re-booted or a given USB device was re-inserted - in particularly into a different USB port.  Semi-modern versions of Windows are FAR better with that.  Very seldom will a comm port number change when a given device is re-inserted (even into a different USB port), and I can't remember that last time that a different comm port number was assigned after a re-boot.

 

[TheDucks]

What Jim said.  Windows has even gotten smarter in that it will not TRY to reuse a COM number.  (there is a limit)

If you lose or Break COM type USB devices, you can open Windows Device Manager an SHOW Hidden (items that are not present or in use) and delete them from COM PORTS (with care) section..

This is also where you can force Windows to use a different COM number

[Orville]

4 hours ago, k6ccc said:

No.  Each USB to RS-485 adapter will get assigned a separate Comm Port number. 

Back in the old days, Windows would routinely assign a different Comm Port number every time the computer was re-booted or a given USB device was re-inserted - in particularly into a different USB port.  Semi-modern versions of Windows are FAR better with that.  Very seldom will a comm port number change when a given device is re-inserted (even into a different USB port), and I can't remember that last time that a different comm port number was assigned after a re-boot.

 

Thank you Jim.  That's not the way I was understanding TheDucks post.  What you just told me is what I always thought was how it worked, but TheDucks post threw me a curve ball, and so I had to ask.  I thought maybe I was missing something that I didn't know.  Turns out I had the right stuff going on from the onset.

Again, thank you Jim for clearing this one up.  I was definitely confused there for a bit.

[Orville]

4 hours ago, TheDucks said:

What Jim said.  Windows has even gotten smarter in that it will not TRY to reuse a COM number.  (there is a limit)

If you lose or Break COM type USB devices, you can open Windows Device Manager an SHOW Hidden (items that are not present or in use) and delete them from COM PORTS (with care) section..

This is also where you can force Windows to use a different COM number

Thanks for the info.  But I was aware of that.  From the way I had read your previous answer, it looked like you were saying you could use the same comm port for all networks and I didn't think that was possible, but your wording of it sort of threw me a curve ball and so I just had to ask. 

Had to be sure I wasn't missing something that could have possibly been done.  Sometimes you learn something new that you may not know here, even after using the software for years, sometimes something new crops up one missed and was unaware of could be done.  

So just wanted to be sure I was either reading it wrong or misunderstood what you had said.  It definitely had me confused there for a while. LOL

 

[Pioerpaolo]

it's really true Orville, you use something in the same way for years, then someone tells you that you can do even better ..... better this way, so you grow up, thanks to all and I hope I understood correctly, I ordered the hub, as soon as he arrives I try, thanks again

[Pioerpaolo]

Continuing the discussion, once the hub is installed, if I understand correctly, to every network that goes to a controller, do I have to route it one by one to a different network? that is, 1602 + cmb24 regular, 1 pixie16 aux a, 2 pixie16 aux b and so on?

[Orville]

17 minutes ago, Pioerpaolo said:

Continuing the discussion, once the hub is installed, if I understand correctly, to every network that goes to a controller, do I have to route it one by one to a different network? that is, 1602 + cmb24 regular, 1 pixie16 aux a, 2 pixie16 aux b and so on?

No you can have one network for multiple controllers.  In my case I have 4 of the older V2 {Pre Gen 3} CTB16PC Controllers and 5 of the CCB100D RGB Controllers.

My CTB16PC's are on the Regular. 115K, LOR Network, my 5 RGB Controllers are on the Enhanced, 500K, Aux A Network.  

If my Controllers {CTB16PC} would have all been Gen 3 types, they all could be on the AUX A HS Network {or I could have changed my Regular Network to Enhanced, 500K if G3 CTB16PC and/or RGB Controllers on the Regular network}, since the G3 controllers can operate at those 500K speeds and use the Enhanced Network.   Just depends on the age of your controllers and that you have the right adapter for what your controller types can be set to use.

Now if you have a PIXCON16, that one would require a separate network as it requires a 1,000K Enhanced Network.

But from what you show, if the 1602 is a Gen3, you should be able to put all those on the same network if desired.  You only need to really add in a new network if controllers are from different times, V1, V2, Gen3 or require a different speed due to type of controller {like the PIXCON16}, you would also need a new network if you have maxed out the number of controllers that LOR supports on any given network.  Which, if memory serves me correctly, is 255 controllers per network.

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Orville

[TheDucks]

Since I did not have a thru-put issue, I daiseid by direction location  from the PC (Just made sure the Gen 2 was on the slow, black network)

1 right, 1 left and 1 Up (roof. Yes, I had a controller on a chimney TV mount for my ridge an chimney Santas/Halloween ghosts)

[Pioerpaolo]

then maybe I didn't understand anything about what the duck said. from the one written by jim, which pins the channels recommended by LOR, by network, 2,400 pixels (or 7,200 channels) on an Enhanced network of 1,000K, having 3 pixie16 with 100 pixels for 16 channels I should use 3 red adapters, one for each controllers, attached to the USB 3.0 hub. if for the 2x1602g3 + 2xcmb24 I use the regular 500k enchance, with black adapter, the question is, on these red adapters, I use only one "aux A" network at 1000k improved for all and 3 or "aux a" check at the first, "auxb" to the second and so on, this is what is still not clear to me, thank you I hope the translation is clear