Lagging Shows

[Mike Anderson]

3 hours ago, k6ccc said:

Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Connectors-Adapter-Ethernet-Interface/dp/B07L4RTPSJ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=rj45+splitter&qid=1566236254&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzSEI2RFhFQURYMU0wJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzE4NDI5M1VORzZTUk5aR1c1MiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTA3Mzg0MUpURUowUE5LSFZZVyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

Not sure I am reading this right, but would this allow you to run Cat 5 to either side of the house?  I've been mapping my display in my head and am trying to figure out how to connect it all.  If this works like I think you are saying, that will solve another issue i may run into.

[Orville]

7 hours ago, Mr. P said:

Just another example why LOR needs to get rid of the black adapter, too much confusion. We need to start a campaign to make the red adapter the standard.  😁

Aw gee Mr. P my RS485B black adapter is just fine for my Older CTB16PC Controllers, always worked perfectly fine until I got into Pixels.  Then I bought a red high speed adapter for them{pixels}. 

I like having both types, that way I know exactly what is on what network.  Mainly because I do have older CTB16PC Controllers. 

Yes, I know they can work on the red adapter, however the red adapter is missing one key element for me to get rid of my old black RS485B, and that's the extra Cat5 output.   I'd prefer NOT to use splitters if I can avoid them and have everything nice and neat tied to 1 or 2 adapters.  

Be even nicer if LOR would make a HS Adapter that had 4 cat5 ports on it.{hint, hint LOR.}  Then I'd be set for what I need currently and for later expansion if that ever came.  Then I could retired the old black adapter.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Orville

[k6ccc]

5 hours ago, Mike Anderson said:

Not sure I am reading this right, but would this allow you to run Cat 5 to either side of the house?  I've been mapping my display in my head and am trying to figure out how to connect it all.  If this works like I think you are saying, that will solve another issue i may run into.

Yes it would.  To keep the network reasonably close to "proper", keep the cable between the USB to RS-485 adapter and the splitter SHORT (like only a few inches).  Essentially what you are ending up with is a single network where the the primary source is somewhere in the middle (completely allowed in the RS-485 spec).  What you don't want to do is have a cable of substantial length between the USB to RS-485 adapter and the splitter.

 

[LOR Staff]

23 hours ago, Mr. P said:

Just another example why LOR needs to get rid of the black adapter, too much confusion. We need to start a campaign to make the red adapter the standard.  😁

I do my part:  Anyone I talk to on the phone is told skip the black go for red and spend the $2

16 hours ago, Orville said:

Yes, I know they can work on the red adapter, however the red adapter is missing one key element for me to get rid of my old black RS485B, and that's the extra Cat5 output. 

When we say black or red, we are talking about the small T-Shirt adapters, not the B/ISO ones.  FYI:  the ISO one CAN do 500K (and happens to be black).  The B one can NOT.  Read about it in boring detail here: http://www1.lightorama.com/network-speeds/

 

12 hours ago, k6ccc said:

Yes it would.  To keep the network reasonably close to "proper", keep the cable between the USB to RS-485 adapter and the splitter SHORT (like only a few inches).  Essentially what you are ending up with is a single network where the the primary source is somewhere in the middle (completely allowed in the RS-485 spec).  What you don't want to do is have a cable of substantial length between the USB to RS-485 adapter and the splitter.

This is the one of the FEW things that Jim and I disagree on (wow.  Not many of those!)  Unless provided for on the adapter (like the B or ISO or Repeater), we do NOT recommend splitting the RS485 signal. Impedance mismatches will cause signal reflections causing all kinds of problems.  In our adapters with 2 jacks, each jack is isolated from the other.  You placing a Y connector will not isolate the 2 segments.  You'll have an impedance mismatch/timing mismatch which could cause signal reflections from one side distorting the actual signal on the other.  

Now....  Can you do it? Yup.  Will you have problems?  Probably not - we use high quality transceivers which are pretty good at rejecting noise.  But 'probably' is not  'never'.  If you do end up with signal problems, one of the first things we are going to tell you is to make sure you don't have an Y's.  

Just as an FYI, here is our helpdesk response for troubleshooting network issues:

What you are describing is probably not a problem with any particular controller, but a problem with your data network in general.

The first thing to do is move a particularly troublesome controller to the end of the string of controllers and then try both RJ45 jacks. You can also run a phone line between the second to the last and this controller and use the RJ11s and see if this helps.

If you still have issues the most likely cause is going to be a problem on your data network SOMEWHERE -- not just near this troublesome controller.

The nature of RS485 communications can mean a problem with a cable or other interference is actually anywhere on the network, not just between 2 controllers that exhibit symptoms. It is important to remember this while working through some of the suggestions below. A problem that is actually between controllers 2 and 3 can appear between controllers 12 and 13.  We must stress again -- It is very important that you remember this fact while troubleshooting.

There could be multiple issues with your network, and that finding the problem is a matter of trial and error.
 

• The first and easiest thing to check is to make sure NONE of your data cables are running parallel or near any electrical cords. Data cables should never be bundled with power lines, or cords going out to your lights. If it is necessary to locate a data cable near an electrical line, be sure they cross at a 90 degree angle or they are kept at least 12-18" away from each other (or more).
• Ensure your network is not physically too long. RS485 communications is good for a MAXIMUM of 4000' at 19.2K in IDEAL conditions. In real life distances can be much shorter. Higher speeds are more likely to have issues, but you should still be able to go many hundreds of feet. If you are starting to bump close to the 600-700 foot range using higher speeds (above 57.6k), you may want to consider an RS485 repeater or splitting your network onto 2 or more USB adapters (see below).
• A single RS485 network should NOT have any Ys  or other splitters. RS485 should be strictly POINT TO POINT. If you are using a splitter or other device (with the exception of an active RS485 Topology Extender/Repeater), you need to remove them.  You can NOT use both RJ45s and the RJ11 of a controller at the same time.  
• You may need to add a 'terminator' to the end of your controllers.  Data reflections can occur at the end of the RS485 data line causing data to be corrupted anywhere along the chain of controllers.  If you have a new Pixie controller (one that has dip switches), we recommend you place that controller at the END of the line and then place a jumper on JP4.  If not, you can create your own terminator.  To build your own terminator, use a 1/4 w 120 ohm resistor and place it between pins 4 and 5 of an RJ45 jack.  
• Start replacing the data lines between the controllers, starting with the one from the USB adapter to the first controller. A cheap CAT5 cable tester can help identify cables that have broken wires/bad connectors, but is mostly useless for testing marginal data networks.  A marginal cable can test just fine with one of these testers, but have too much internal resistance/impedance which renders RS485 communications unstable further down the line.

You may find that on some days you have no issues at all, but on others you experience many.  You may also find that during a show things start to work better, or get worse.  All of this is the nature of RS485.  Temperature and humidity changes do have an affect on RS485.  If you have a marginal network already, a small weather change is all it may take to go from working to not. 

If you find that none of these suggestions help, you may be in an electrically noisy environment. Depending on the complexity of your sequences, you may wish to go into the Network Configuration and reduce the speed of your network. The slower the network speed, the more resilient it is to noise. However, slower communications speeds may impact your sequences. In general, you should use the slowest speed that correctly renders your most complex sequence.

The last step is to break the network into 2 or more parts. Data cables can actually become large antennas for electrical noise. The more antenna there is out there for a network, the more susceptible it is to picking up electrical noise. The LOR Advanced software and above can run 16 separate data networks. By splitting your controllers into 2 or more networks, you reduce the run length and increase noise suppression. For each new network, you would purchase a new USB RS485 adapter, and then assign the adapter to a new network (AUX-A through AUX-O are available). Move some of your controllers physically onto this new network and then update your sequences so that the channels point to the correct network.

[Mike Anderson]

Thanks Guys!  Changing my network speed seems to have solved the problem.  Hopefully I don't get to the point where I have to add another network.  I don't feel like going and changing all my sequences.  Maybe next year when I try out S5.

Mike

[dibblejr]

1 hour ago, Mike Anderson said:

Thanks Guys!  Changing my network speed seems to have solved the problem.  Hopefully I don't get to the point where I have to add another network.  I don't feel like going and changing all my sequences.  Maybe next year when I try out S5.

Mike

It is very easy to add a new network. Takes less than 5 minutes. If you ever need help just pm me. I have 12-13 networks depending on my props I set up.

JR

[k6ccc]

On 8/20/2019 at 8:02 AM, DevMike said:

This is the one of the FEW things that Jim and I disagree on (wow.  Not many of those!)  Unless provided for on the adapter (like the B or ISO or Repeater), we do NOT recommend splitting the RS485 signal. Impedance mismatches will cause signal reflections causing all kinds of problems.  In our adapters with 2 jacks, each jack is isolated from the other.  You placing a Y connector will not isolate the 2 segments.  You'll have an impedance mismatch/timing mismatch which could cause signal reflections from one side distorting the actual signal on the other.  

Yea, Mike and I don't disagree very often.  The only way you can do it and stay within the RS-485 spec is to keep the amount of wire between the RS-485 adapter and the splitter REALLY short.  When I was doing it, the cable was about one inch (including the connectors on the two ends).  The back of the two connectors were in contact with each other.  This puts the RS-485 comm chip within a couple inches of the pass through network.  This is not really much different than any RS-485 device except that on the device, the inch or two is PC board traces on the board.  Off hand, I don't remember what the RS-485 spec is for wire (or PC board traces) length between the communications chip and the passthrough network, but 10 cm (about 4 inches) comes to mind (that may well not be correct).

Two networks would be the preferred.

 

[LOR Staff]

The only reason Jim and I disagree on this (and even then, see below) is that I have to take an official stand - when you support this stuff, you need to have some firm rules. 

In the interest of full disclosure - yes, we have VERY RARELY recommended to customers that they use a Y.  Typically it's an emergency situation where the customer simply can't remove a controller with a bad RJ45 from their chain.  We also tell them that once the emergency is over, they need to send it in for repair.  Other than that, we say no. 

We especially say no when it's to run in 2 directions.

So if you have a broken RJ45, AND you are stuck, we'll tell you that you can temporarily do it.  But if you ever ask us for support and tell us you have one, that will be the first thing we tell you to remove.  Otherwise we end up chasing ghosts (reflections).