The same ol, same ol GFCI tripping issue

[dibblejr]

59 minutes ago, Soupy8728 said:

Before I got my controllers/software...my lights were all ran off of an old day/night timer plugged into my GFCI on my porch.  After a good rain, the lights tripped the GFCI.  I got my new controllers in the mail last week and installed them in my garage and then re-ran all of my extension cords to the individual light strings and where they connect outside, I put plastic gallon zip-lock bags over the connections and zip tied them shut.  No issues since.  Hope that helps.

There are many great ways to accomplish the water proofing mission however in some rains ( like we have been having since Halloween) the only sure way is a tripped breaker.

The weather is killing us this year. I’ve been lucky - all RGB props still going strong.

Only lost 4 of my 15 singing faces, mega tree and mini trees. So I still have a pretty decent show.

JR

[Orville]

1 hour ago, dibblejr said:

There are many great ways to accomplish the water proofing mission however in some rains ( like we have been having since Halloween) the only sure way is a tripped breaker.

The weather is killing us this year. I’ve been lucky - all RGB props still going strong.

Only lost 4 of my 15 singing faces, mega tree and mini trees. So I still have a pretty decent show.

JR

We've had a few days where we had steady rain day and night, my show ran flawlessly, and at times the rain was so hard coming down you couldn't even see the neighbors house a few feet away!.   But I can see a lot of my stuff by looking out a window, and everything was still going, just wasn't a good night to view it though. LOL   I could have pulled the plug on the show, but I like to see if what methods I use to keep moisture and water out are doing the job I hope they're doing.    So far, so good, still no trips on the GFCI or the breaker.  

The only thing that will trip the main circuit breaker is if my wife{or our roommates} plugs a hair dryer into the bathroom outlet, then the breaker pops and I have to reset it to get the show going again.   Any other outlet in the house is fine, just that one causes the breaker to trip and it's been replaced with a brand new outlet and still does it.    I just need to get that bathroom outlet off that particular circuit!   Other than that one issue, my show has ran non stop when it's showtime, rain or dry.   So now I have the bathroom outlets capped in that bathroom and told her and the roommates, sorry, you'll have to use another outlet to run the hair dryer.   So far, so good.  KNOCK ON WOOD! LOL

Edited December 11, 2018 by Orville

[jtomason]

One other issue I encountered that isn't - and is - kinda related.   If your outlets are "backstabbed" - meaning that they are connected via push-in contacts instead of on screw-down terminals - like this:

 

 

..Eventually - especially if there's a decent load on them - the jaws inside the outlet that grab (and hold on to) the wires will fail from heating/cooling cycles and begin starting to arc - and that will cause GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers (yes, they exist) to trip.    You may want to consider rewiring such outlets to the screw terminals to avoid problems down the road.  I had to do that for all the outlets (and light switches) in my home office as the GFCI breaker kept tripping randomly under the same, unchanging load that existed for years - even when no one was home.   Rewiring all the outlets and switches fixed the root problem - well, that and replacing the GFCI breaker - because, as it turns out, they have an effective lifetime of how many times they can trip before they will begin tripping under increasingly smaller voltage mismatches.   

So basically, the backstabbed outlets and switches were arcing and causing the GFCI breaker to trip, which over time led to the GFCI breaker increasingly tripping with more and more frequency as smaller and smaller arcs tripped it. 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by jtomason

[TheDucks]

8 minutes ago, jtomason said:

One other issue I encountered that isn't - and is - kinda related.   If your outlets are "backstabbed" - meaning that they are connected via push-in contacts instead of on screw-down terminals - like this:

 

 

..Eventually - especially if there's a decent load on them - the jaws inside the outlet that grab (and hold on to) the wires will fail from heating/cooling cycles and begin starting to arc - and that will cause GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers (yes, they exist) to trip.    You may want to consider rewiring such outlets to the screw terminals to avoid problems down the road.  I had to do that for all the outlets (and light switches) in my home office as the GFCI breaker kept tripping randomly under the same, unchanging load that existed for years - even when no one was home.   Rewiring all the outlets fixed the root problem - well, that and replacing the GFCI breaker - because, as it turns out, they have an effective lifetime of how many times they can trip before they will begin tripping under increasingly smaller voltage mismatches.   

So basically, the backstabbed outlets and switches were arcing and causing the GFCI breaker to trip, which over time led to the GFCI breaker increasing tripping with more and more frequency as smaller and smaller arcs tripped it. 

 

Push fit outlets and switches are not allowed in my house. Like you, I have see these fail repeatedly (give the wire a hard tug. if it comes out, even a tint fit, that is a FAIL).  Also don't use the $0.69 outlets  for any load that is on for more tan a few minutes.  IMHO the best is the ones where the screw pulls a clamping plate.  OTOH No need for the ridiculously priced 'SPEC" grade. I like HD 'Pro grade'.  Any with side screws (WHEN USED)  can be used.

BTW I noticed newer Push in outlets will not accept 12Ga (used on 20A circuits). You must use the screws (and don't cheat by using 14Ga pigtails)

 

AlsoLook in the slots: you want metal touching the entire width of the plugs flats.  (I had a kitchen outlet fail. When I opened it up, it was a piece of sheet metal with a slot cut in. That's right: the whole contact surface was the thickness of the metal

 

[k6ccc]

Well, I joined the GFCI trip club yesterday - and I really don't understand this one.  A arrive home from work well after my show starts, so I usually dial up my FM station when I'm a half mile or so away from home in order to determine when I start hearing it.  By the time I'm a couple blocks away, I should be at least detecting that it's there, but nothing.  By the time I'm about to make the last turn I still haven't heard anything.  Come around the corner and I see that the column light, perimeter string and Tune-To sign are not lit.  OK, they are all plugged into a circuit in one of the brick columns.  Park and open up the column and circuit #1 which powers a network switch and an access point are fine.  Circuit #2 has a tripped GFCI.  Reset it and as of almost 14 hours later it's holding.  The catch is that it rained almost a week ago, but has been dry since.  The only place where there is any cord ends is far from any lawn sprinklers.  One of my security cameras is plugged into that circuit, and reviewing the recording from the camera tells that it failed at about 1:30 in the afternoon.  The GFCI was new when I installed power in the column about four years ago.

The following items are plugged into circuit #2:

Inside the brick column:

   12V 350 watt power supply that powers three 16 channel DC controllers, an InputPup, & a E6804 pixel controller

   12V 3 amp power supply that powers my FM transmitter

On the outside of the brick column (both under "proper" rainproof outlet cover):

   Extension cord to singing faces,

   Small wall wart power supply for camera

In front of the house:

   One CTB16 powering two singing face trees - all connections are off the ground

   25 foot cord to 5 volt 350 watt power supply for P10 panel - way under the eves

 

So beats me why it tripped...

 

[Orville]

10 minutes ago, k6ccc said:

Well, I joined the GFCI trip club yesterday - and I really don't understand this one.  A arrive home from work well after my show starts, so I usually dial up my FM station when I'm a half mile or so away from home in order to determine when I start hearing it.  By the time I'm a couple blocks away, I should be at least detecting that it's there, but nothing.  By the time I'm about to make the last turn I still haven't heard anything.  Come around the corner and I see that the column light, perimeter string and Tune-To sign are not lit.  OK, they are all plugged into a circuit in one of the brick columns.  Park and open up the column and circuit #1 which powers a network switch and an access point are fine.  Circuit #2 has a tripped GFCI.  Reset it and as of almost 14 hours later it's holding.  The catch is that it rained almost a week ago, but has been dry since.  The only place where there is any cord ends is far from any lawn sprinklers.  One of my security cameras is plugged into that circuit, and reviewing the recording from the camera tells that it failed at about 1:30 in the afternoon.  The GFCI was new when I installed power in the column about four years ago.

The following items are plugged into circuit #2:

Inside the brick column:

   12V 350 watt power supply that powers three 16 channel DC controllers, an InputPup, & a E6804 pixel controller

   12V 3 amp power supply that powers my FM transmitter

On the outside of the brick column (both under "proper" rainproof outlet cover):

   Extension cord to singing faces,

   Small wall wart power supply for camera

In front of the house:

   One CTB16 powering two singing face trees - all connections are off the ground

   25 foot cord to 5 volt 350 watt power supply for P10 panel - way under the eves

 

So beats me why it tripped...

 

Are any of your extension cord connections exposed out in the elements?  

Perhaps one came slightly ajar, just enough to let water get on both metal contacts and trip the GFCI?  

Just a suggestion as I do a connection check of my extension cords daily because of dogs that some owners just allow to roam the neighborhood{not supposed to, but they do it} and the dog{s} sometimes pulled a connection slightly ajar, just enough it would trip the GFCI if it happens to get wet.  Found this issue when watering the plants and the GFCI tripped and couldn't understand why, everything was "weatherproofed and waterproofed.  Started looking and found an extension cord connection just slightly ajar, exposing the metal contacts{prongs} from the male plug, unplugged it from controller, dried off, reconnected properly and no more problem.  So it's something I check on a regular basis to keep the show running.

Other than that, can't think of anything else at the moment that could have possibly caused your GFCI trip issue.

[TheDucks]

Welcome to the I had a GFCI trip without rain club. 

I had the one that powers the majority of my controllers (4) trip for no apparent reason (no rain, or sprinklers).

Reset it, and it has held through 2 rain storms (with measurable rain).

[jtomason]

2 hours ago, k6ccc said:

Well, I joined the GFCI trip club yesterday - and I really don't understand this one. 

 

Could be exactly what I was seeing.   My home office has computers and monitors that run 24x7 (so a pretty constant and consistent load), a light that turns on when I'm there and a fan that is turned on when needed.   The GFCI breaker would trip even while no one was home, so the load was not changing and it was the same load that had been present for well over a year.    The backstabbed outlets were taking out the GFCI breaker slowly but surely over time.   How are those outlets wired?

 

Oh, and you'll appreciate this one - it actually happened a few times when I keyed up on HF, so naturally I assumed it was RF-driven and started installing chokes and chasing that angle, only to find out that it was really the outlets and breaker.  The same HF transmissions don't do anything adverse anymore. 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by jtomason

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, jtomason said:

Could be exactly what I was seeing.   My home office has computers and monitors that run 24x7 (so a pretty constant and consistent load), a light that turns on when I'm there and a fan that is turned on when needed.   The GFCI breaker would trip even while no one was home, so the load was not changing and it was the same load that had been present for well over a year.    The backstabbed outlets were taking out the GFCI breaker slowly but surely over time.   How are those outlets wired?

 

Oh, and you'll appreciate this one - it actually happened a few times when I keyed up on HF, so naturally I assumed it was RF-driven and started installing chokes and chasing that angle, only to find out that it was really the outlets and breaker.  The same HF transmissions don't do anything adverse anymore. 

 

Your GFCI may just be an older design or going bad.  I had a Shower fan light (GFCI protected), that when I turned the fan OFF, would trip the other GFCI  serving the vanity outlets. Not even on the same circuit, just in the same switch box.  Replaced that on (an 1980's model, with a 90's model and have not had another trip.

[k6ccc]

3 minutes ago, jtomason said:

Could be exactly what I was seeing.   My home office has computers and monitors that run 24x7 (so a pretty constant and consistent load), a light that turns on when I'm there and a fan that is turned on when needed.   The GFCI breaker would trip even while no one was home, so the load was not changing and it was the same load that had been present for well over a year.    The backstabbed outlets were taking out the GFCI breaker slowly but surely over time.   How are those outlets wired?

Not with the "backstabbing" connections.  I essentially exclusively use stranded wire and you can't use the backstabbing connections for that.  The "wrap the wire around the screw" connections also don't work very well with stranded wire.  Only use the ones that have a clamp under the screw.

1 hour ago, jtomason said:

Oh, and you'll appreciate this one - it actually happened a few times when I keyed up on HF, so naturally I assumed it was RF-driven and started installing chokes and chasing that angle, only to find out that it was really the outlets and breaker.  The same HF transmissions don't do anything adverse anymore. 

Yep, I understand that one.  I have a GFCI outlet in my kitchen that trips if I key up with a 440 MHz handheld at the kitchen table.  I need to replace that one (about 25 years old). 

Many moons ago every year during the 160M SSB contest, I would flash over the carbon arc protector on my phone line.  It was the only time I operated legal limit on 160M and the wire antenna was close to and the phone drop.  After a few years, the phone guy replaced the carbon arc protector with gas protectors and the problem went away...

 

[ItsMeBobO]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:12 PM, k6ccc said:

I have a GFCI outlet in my kitchen that trips if I key up with a 440 MHz handheld at the kitchen table.  I need to replace that one (about 25 years old). 

Many moons ago every year during the 160M SSB contest, I would flash over the carbon arc protector on my phone line.  It was the only time I operated legal limit on 160M and the wire antenna was close to and the phone drop.  After a few years, the phone guy replaced the carbon arc protector with gas protectors and the problem went away...

 

No idea what you are talking about here. 

 

 

[ItsMeBobO]

This year I have already had two nights with my LED array out. 😞  Resetting trips off again the very moment I push it.      I was short on time and did not use stakes to hold the plugs off the ground.    Lessons learned with pain. 

[dibblejr]

54 minutes ago, ItsMeBobO said:

No idea what you are talking about here. 

 

 

Ham radio jargon I believe

Hence the K6 user name - my best guess. When I was in the Boy Scouts we had an old ham radio on the farm. 

JR

[TheDucks]

28 minutes ago, dibblejr said:

Ham radio jargon I believe

Hence the K6 user name - my best guess. When I was in the Boy Scouts we had an old ham radio on the farm. 

JR

Your guesse is spot on.  160 Metre band (Real Long wave stuff), SSB is single Side Band

QRM is man made noise (arcing, electronic)  QRN is Natural Noise (Lightning)

[Orville]

2 hours ago, ItsMeBobO said:

No idea what you are talking about here. 

 

 

Having been in CB Radio and having an Art Teacher that was into Ham Radio.  I knew what he was talking about.  But if you;d never been into 2 way radio communications like CB or Ham, chances are, as you stated, you'd have no idea.   If I hadn't been into it, I know I wouldn't have either!

Edited December 17, 2018 by Orville

[~DOC~]

On 12/23/2017 at 7:35 PM, k6ccc said:

#2 & #3 are pretty much the same problem.   For most of this discussion I will use tomato cages in my examples, but other metal frames have the same issues.  <Warning, technical content> 

UGH I overlooked this. I am using tomatoe cages. I guess I need to elevate them next year on a piece of plywood or maybe plasti dip them. I only have had two occurrences. The second one was easy to fix that night (plug fell in puddle).  I am surprised I have not had more trips..... Good Info.....