mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 And as far as loosing your neutral, your model UPS has a wiring fault LED indicator that would be lit if you dropped your neutral.Which lights come on and what audibles, if any, do you hear when it indicates it's in trouble / battery mode?Just a beep and then the display switches from input monitoring to output monitoring. As soon as the "trouble" stops, the beep stops, and the display switches back to input monitoring. There is a meter that shows the remaining battery level, and as this happens through the night, predictably, the meter drops. And again, this is only when the TV/Entertainment center is on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Here is a crude drawing of the layout in a typical circuit breaker panel. A and B represent the 2 "phases" or 120 volt legs coming in from the transformer. As you can see, they are separated by row. So, this would mean that breakers 1 & 2 are on leg A, 2 & 4 on leg B and so on. by following this, we can see that #9, 18 & 21 are on leg A and #12, 15 & 19 are on leg B. Hope this helps.Had no idea that's how that would be set up. I'll have to give that a try too. Now I'll just how to figure out where to connect to a couple of those other circuits. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-klb- Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It's not really phases. Residential panels are single phase. But, what they are referring to are the bus bars in the panel. You are correct that the left and right determine L1 and L2, unless it's a really old panel. The fact that you have drawn out 21 circuits all but rules old panel out.If it was left and right, how would a double pole breaker supply 220v line to line instead of 0 volts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If it was left and right, how would a double pole breaker supply 220v line to line instead of 0 volts?I'm used to looking at panels with their covers off - so I wasn't going into great details as it's really a mute point. But, for clarification - left side 1 pole breaker could be on left bus or a bridge to the right bus. The drawing wasn't real clear on my phone and I was too vague - sorry..... But again, mute point. Christmas lights are not going to cause a voltage drop to cause the theatre UPS to come on. Just not going to. If lights are sucking that much juice, will be popping breakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Just a beep and then the display switches from input monitoring to output monitoring. As soon as the "trouble" stops, the beep stops, and the display switches back to input monitoring. There is a meter that shows the remaining battery level, and as this happens through the night, predictably, the meter drops. And again, this is only when the TV/Entertainment center is on. It doesn't make a beep for faulty wiring, which is why I say the electrical class on phase doesn't really matter. It just lights that LED. Is it a solid long beep? That's a battery overload or bad battery. Edited December 31, 2014 by Mega Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If it is long beeps and the batteries pass the test, next you should unplug something from the UPS. Not the surge only side, but the battery / surge side. Then after 10 or 15 seconds, push the UPS breaker reset. Then turn the unit back on. that should clear the battery overload condition. When adding up how much you are running on it, you have to factor in a power factor. Typically we use a .7 multiplier. You may think you are not overloading the UPS, but could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Is it a solid long beep?That's a battery overload or bad battery.It's always a short beep, usually no more than 1 sec or so. But it does seem to coincide with the UPS display change fairly closely. In other words the beep and display change from input to output seem to happen almost simultaneously, then the beep stops (usually less than 1 sec later), and less than a sec after than, the UPS display switches back to input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) When adding up how much you are running on it, you have to factor in a power factor. Typically we use a .7 multiplier. You may think you are not overloading the UPS, but could be.I was just going by the load display on the UPS itself. Is that not a reliable figure? And again, it only experiences these issues when the lights are running. I have had absolutely no issues when the show is off. Edited January 1, 2015 by mwilliams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayburn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I will have to respectfully disagree with Mega. Incandescents can pull a lot of amps. If there is some distance from the service entrance to the breaker panel, a large surge may "dirty" the power enough to kick in the ups. When I was all incandescent, my house lights would flicker sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a31ford Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Put it this way... if the PANEL neutral is loose or disconnected... the two pole of the AC line (generally Black and Red) become a two light old style set of bulbs.... you know, the type where if one goes out the entire string is dead.... HOWEVER.. we are daling with a multi circuit laf center (the panel itself, so the chance of ALL the circuits on one leg of the AC (red or black) ALL being off is highly unlikely, THIS is the reason the voltage is swinging enough that the UPS is thinking that the voltage is low... REMEMBER we are talking about the PANEL (or upstream) of the panel, NOT an outlet. The UPS is simply sensing the differential, Yes it could be batterys, but I really do not think so, as the ups has an input voltage meter..... Greg Edited January 1, 2015 by a31ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I will have to respectfully disagree with Mega. Incandescents can pull a lot of amps. If there is some distance from the service entrance to the breaker panel, a large surge may "dirty" the power enough to kick in the ups. When I was all incandescent, my house lights would flicker sometimes.Not trying to argue with anyone, but the UPS is not powering the lights. Flicker and kick end - well maybe.. But just can't be running so many lights to cause a continued voltage drop in the living room to keep the UPS running. I was just going by the load display on the UPS itself. Is that not a reliable figure? And again, it only experiences these issues when the lights are running. I have had absolutely no issues when the show is off.Yes, that display should be good for load info. Does the entertainment items stay on most of the day, or just at night at the same time the show is running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Additionally, lights kicking / flickering is similar to a power company dimmer - referred to many times as a brown out. this model is line interactive, meaning it corrects brownouts and overvoltage without using battery power. So the battery should only be draining if the power has been removed or bad batteries. I just can't wrap my head around your lights effecting this UPS. If it was a 10 year old with a different topology, maybe. But you have a pretty descent unit. Run the battery diagnostic self-test and see where you are at. If the others are correct and the main neutral is loose or disconnected, it should show up in other items being weird in the house. If batteries check out fine, might ought to call someone out to check it - just to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayburn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Mega, I agree, I don't think it is a neutral issue and you seem to be much more knowledgeable on ups's than I am. It seems to me the ups is sensing a brownout. OP stated the ups only died when loaded. Could this loading keep the ups from returning to normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Does the entertainment items stay on most of the day, or just at night at the same time the show is running?Nope. Actually, it's off most of the day. I'm usually gone from 9a-10p, and rarely does anyone else use it when I'm not home. Don't know if it matters much, but my display is pretty easy to break down by controller. #1 162ft rope light, 3600 mini lights, 300 M6 LEDs#2 186 C9, 1200 mini lights, 24ft rope light#3 6400 mini lights#4 6400 mini lights#5 1600 mini lights#6 1600 mini lights Don't know if that is helpful or just white noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Mega, I agree, I don't think it is a neutral issue and you seem to be much more knowledgeable on ups's than I am. It seems to me the ups is sensing a brownout. OP stated the ups only died when loaded. Could this loading keep the ups from returning to normal?It is possible- normally. But he states the display says under the capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne K Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) mwilliams On my Cyberpower UPS I can look at the software interface and go to the summary tab and see what mine is doing whether it is going over voltage or under voltage or a power outage. Does your software show any of that info? This particular one I have is a CP1200AVR. Just thought if you can see any of this info in the ups software it may shed a little more light on things. Wayne Edited January 1, 2015 by Wayne K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-Paul Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) MW this past winter of 13-14 my house had what sounds like your problem as others have pointed out. And BTW I am an Electrician. My wife calls me at work and says that the furnace is not running nor is our well pump. in my case one of my hot leads is sort of open outside of the house. In your case it can be the neutral lead is sort of open. or totally open. No house is going to have a balanced load across both hot leads. So the side with the bigger load will have a lower voltage while the side with a smaller load will have a higher voltage. If you have a volt meter and can take the panel off of your breaker box. With volt meter check from neutral or ground to the left top breaker, note voltage. Now check from left 2nd breaker and note voltage. Both should be within 1 volt of each other. If more than that, then there is a chance of a broken neutral, esp if it is 10 or more volts difference. BTW my entrance wire is buried from the pole in front yard to side of house, and under drive way. Turns out the wire was bad about 7 feet from pole. Utility men said it looked like some critter decided that the jacket looked good to eat. Edited January 1, 2015 by Max-Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinch Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 We have a new house and when we moved in the lights started getting brighter only when my wife ran the dryer. Called utility company and the lineman hooked up his mega meter outside coming into the house and fried the meter in seconds. His eyes got real big and he said its the first time he lost a meter and he was on the job for 20 plus years. We had lost our neutral somewhere under ground to the house. We lost a lot of light bulbs in the house that day and a dryer.I agree with Max Paul that the UPS will kick out for small differences in voltage but it can be several reasons besides the neutral that cause it it kick out, it depends on the tolerances set on the UPS for over/under voltages, but there should be an indicator light for wiring problems.if all of the incan come on at the same time or pulse at the same time it can cause a surge or spike that the UPS might not like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a31ford Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) And as far as loosing your neutral, your model UPS has a wiring fault LED indicator that would be lit if you dropped your neutral.Which lights come on and what audibles, if any, do you hear when it indicates it's in trouble / battery mode? Sorry Mega, but this one I disagree with, as it's not the outlet we are peaking about but rather the panel's neutral. Edited January 1, 2015 by a31ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a31ford Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Max.... You are totally correct !!!! (I;m smiling internally as we have something we ACTUALLY agree on... MW this past winter of 13-14 my house had what sounds like your problem as others have pointed out. And BTW I am an Electrician. My wife calls me at work and says that the furnace is not running nor is our well pump. in my case one of my hot leads is sort of open outside of the house. In your case it can be the neutral lead is sort of open. or totally open. No house is going to have a balanced load across both hot leads. So the side with the bigger load will have a lower voltage while the side with a smaller load will have a higher voltage. If you have a volt meter and can take the panel off of your breaker box. With volt meter check from neutral or ground to the left top breaker, note voltage. Now check from left 2nd breaker and note voltage. Both should be within 1 volt of each other. If more than that, then there is a chance of a broken neutral, esp if it is 10 or more volts difference. BTW my entrance wire is buried from the pole in front yard to side of house, and under drive way. Turns out the wire was bad about 7 feet from pole. Utility men said it looked like some critter decided that the jacket looked good to eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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