mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I have set up my lights the same as previous years, but for some reason, this year when they run they seem to be temporarily tripping the UPS on my entertainment center. The breaker doesn't trip, but the power drops low enough that UPS switches to battery only for a second or two, then it's restored. Strangely (at least to me), none of my lights are on the same circuit as the entertainment center. They are all plugged in to largely unused circuits shared by unoccupied rooms. This has never happened in the past, and the lights themselves never stop running and never lose power. If I'm watching TV, the battery in the UPS will eventually drain to the point that the system just loses power. I'm not even sure what else to check at this point. This only happens when the show is running. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Cockroft Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Does it trip at the same point in the show or in a particular sequence? It could have to do with a lot of lights being turned on at one point. Have you added more lights this year? Are you sure you don't have something on the same circuit with the entertainment center? A circuit in a house can have something like 15 receptacles on one it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a31ford Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) ..CAUTION........ (READ ALL OF IT) Generally NON related circuits causing interaction between them.... usually required NOW attention, things like a loose neutral (generally the white wire in North America) (supply to panel OR from the pole....) I would have an electrician inspect VERY SOON..... here's what happens, if your house looses it's neutral it will cause a floating condition, GFI's will NOT be able to sense any faults, as the reference (white) no longer shows a potential. AS well.... in effect what is starting to happen (IF it's a loose white IN the panel or entrance service), is that your house has become a 220v house, and loads on the red (or black) leg are hunting for the "other wire" (opposite black or red) to achieve a completed circuit (this is the reason the UPS is tripping, as the load changes from the circuits the LOR controllers are on, this in turn causes a voltage offset that the UPS is sensing as "low voltage". IF you have an electric stove..... 220v 50a turn one of the big elements on high, and throw a big pot of water on it..... keep your UPS and computer running, and start your light show. IF the UPS does NOT trigger to battery then I would assume I am CORRECT and you need an electrician NOW. (the stove will become a bridge that will supersede the UPS's ability to sence the voltage potential). IF NOT..... then I have no idea..... I COULD BE WRONG about this , IT'S YOUR DECISION as to go with it or call an electrician.... Greg Edited December 31, 2014 by a31ford 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Gas stove, gas dryer. I've used a circuit breaker finder to confirm all of the circuits are separate. I was just hoping it was something electrical that I didn't know about instead of something I really didn't know about. Guess I'll be calling an electrician. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a31ford Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Just remember... I could be wrong..... (lets hope I am) Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) you said you've been using for years...Your UPS itself could be going out.They are not a "lifetime" purchase item.What is the brand and model of the UPS?If the battery is worn out, it sends signal to charge more often,then the entire UPS is computing too much and eventually fails.Are any of the alarm lights going off before it transfers to battery?Or, have you added anything to that circuit that wasn't there before?Like did Santa bring you a new sound system with a bigger sub ???Before tonight's show, unplug everything from the UPS. Watch the UPS lights and see what goes on. My guess is totally unrelated to your show. Edited December 31, 2014 by Mega Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k6ccc Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I'm with Greg on this one. Without having details, this sounds like an open neutral problem. If you're not qualified to test this, call an electrician ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Boyd Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Greg and Jim are correct. Don't hesitate. Since I'm not an electrician, I'll give my thoughts. Prior to calling an electrician, swap out the UPS as Mega suggested. I've had several of these just stop working over the years. If that stops the problem by replacing UPS, then you saved a ton of money. If it still does what you describe, call the pros ASAP. Don't take any chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 The UPS is just slightly over 2 years old. It's a CyberPower CP1500AVR LCD Intelligent LCD UPS (1500VA 900W). The load on it is 650W when everything is on. I did recently replace both my subwoofer and AV receiver, but that load is with the new components. The display is actually slightly smaller this year vs. prior years, but only by about 1,000 lights. But again, since there isn't anything from the show on this circuit, and this only happens when the show is running, it seems like it's going to be something more expensive and complicated than just replacing the battery or even the UPS. Once again, thanks for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Ok -First, those batteries are only designed for 2 years. Your model UPS comes with a battery self-diagnosis button. Run it and see if both batteries pass. Second, I know you said lights not on circuit, but is your show computer plugged into this same UPS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayburn Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 What is the amperage of your show? If you have a large draw and it is on the same phase as your entertainment center, your ups may be seeing a drop in input voltage. Typically, the phases on your breaker panel alternate with each breaker (depending on your panel layout). If your show is on the same phase as your entertainment center, try changing it to the other phase and see it that relieves your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I'm still leaning towards your batteries. And if they fail the test, change both. If only change one - you'll be going through this again soon...Your neutral is most likely fine. An "open neutral" situation isn't going to come and go. It's either open or it's not. If that was the issue, your UPS would be on battery mode all the time. You only have 11 minutes backup time, so you would know it was a problem long before your Christmas lights. Newer panels - separate neutral spots in panel for each circuit. Older panels using 3 to 1, might have the issue, but again, you'd know it all the time, not just when it's Christmas. Now, disclaimer- I'm not there and couldn't possibly know everything, but check your batteries. Also, could be "noise" from computer if on same circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-klb- Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Open neutral to the panel may hide behind nearly balanced loads on the two legs. Out of typical loads may push the floating neutral further away from ground and make it more visible. If it isn't an open/loose neutral, or UPS battery, the other option is that you may have more of your controllers on the same leg as the UPS this year than last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Ok -First, those batteries are only designed for 2 years. Your model UPS comes with a battery self-diagnosis button. Run it and see if both batteries pass.Second, I know you said lights not on circuit, but is your show computer plugged into this same UPS?I'll run the diagnostic when I get home. Thanks for reminding me. I forgot about that. The computer that runs the show is on a separate circuit. What is the amperage of your show? If you have a large draw and it is on the same phase as your entertainment center, your ups may be seeing a drop in input voltage. Typically, the phases on your breaker panel alternate with each breaker (depending on your panel layout). If your show is on the same phase as your entertainment center, try changing it to the other phase and see it that relieves your problem.I don't recall the total amperage. Unfortunately, I'm still all incandescent. This is a basic diagram of how things are going into the breaker: Does this look like it might be a contributing factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Sometimes when you loose your neutral, lights may go brighter in the house. Are the lights changing brightness? Going dimmer is OK but definitely NOT brighter. I agree the UPS should be checked. But do what you have to do to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Sometimes when you loose your neutral, lights may go brighter in the house. Are the lights changing brightness? Going dimmer is OK but definitely NOT brighter. I agree the UPS should be checked. But do what you have to do to be safe.No lights getting any brighter. I've got some dimming in a couple of rooms, but mostly no changes in brightness either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayburn Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I agree with Grinch. If you neutral was open, you could possibly see brighter lights in some parts of the house. I also agree you could have ups issues, most likely a weak battery. Your show's load may be activating your ups circuitry and the battery is not able to deal with it. It looks to me like circuits 9 & 18 are on the same phase a your entertainment center. I would try turning off 9 and 18 and test your show to see if that stops your ups problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliams Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 It looks to me like circuits 9 & 18 are on the same phase a your entertainment center. I would try turning off 9 and 18 and test your show to see if that stops your ups problem.Forgive my ignorance, but how do you determine the phases? I was just assuming that left and right are the phases, or possibly straight across would be phases. None of those are opposite each other, and they're on both the left and right sides. How were you able to determine that from my fairly crude diagram? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It's not really phases. Residential panels are single phase. But, what they are referring to are the bus bars in the panel. You are correct that the left and right determine L1 and L2, unless it's a really old panel. The fact that you have drawn out 21 circuits all but rules old panel out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 And as far as loosing your neutral, your model UPS has a wiring fault LED indicator that would be lit if you dropped your neutral. Which lights come on and what audibles, if any, do you hear when it indicates it's in trouble / battery mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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