How to incorporate DMX lights into a show

[flyinbyu20]

Sax- I went to your old forum and saw what you bought.  For 50 dollars, it seems like it would be the no brainer to go with this : http://www.holidaycoro.com/Enttec-Pro-Compatible-DMX-Dongle-p/53.htm
 

In the video that Ken posted above on how to program the iDMX, would this one you recommend work the same way as in you can use S3 to figure out all the settings?  Also, how would this all play out in a LOR universe. Right now I go from the computer via USB to a USB485 and then it is ethernet to every box and CCR I have.  Would I have that line plus an additional line off the computer for the DMX or is there a way to connect an ethernet cable from the traditional LOR box into the DMX dongle??

I do like everything zman says about the iDMX and it seems like that is the easier option, but if I can get basically the same thing for something 1/5 the price, I think I have to go that route.  

Now in regards to universe, if I have a basic RGB DMX light, each one of those lights would cost me 3 channels correct?  So for 4 of them, I am now down 12 channels out of 512?  If I get the ones that have motion and I think 7 channels each, now 4 of those would be 28 channels out of 512?  Long as I do not exceed 512 I am good with just one dmx box, the iDMX or the Dongle... correct?

[sax]

Yeah, you will have separate networks with the dongle. The iDmx would be part of the LOR network so nothing extra needed for that. But the dmx dongle would be an entirely new network. I use cat 5 cable but it is just 2 wires that does the communications.

Once you get enough channels going on a LOR network people split that up too to reduce lag, especially when CCRs are used.

You are correct in that an RGB light uses up 3 of the available 512 channels on the universe. It is a lot of lights. Until you start talking pixels. And you can use up to the full 512. And the signal can be for lights, motors, valves....whatever. Some take 1 channel, some take more. So use them up to 512 per universe.

The problem with using the dongle is learning how to program the dj dmx gear. Zman gave you great examples of this. Pan, tilt etc the center, left and right extremes will need to be known for programming...unless you just want them to spin and tilt to some unknown destination. So the dj dmx device or the iDmx which allows you to use the hardware utility will be needed. Unless you just want to plug them in and guess and learn the positions by trial and error.

I don't have dj dmx lights. And I don't have the iDmx so I can't comment on how easy or hard each is for programming. But if I were to look at using this setup I think I would go with the dongle and guess or use trial and error on the lights to find extremes. Until I became so frustrated I couldn't see. Then I would go the cheap dj dmx controller at that point. The iDmx is just too expensive to me.

Edited May 22, 2014 by sax

[flyinbyu20]

Thanks Sax.  Ya, I dont need the lights to be at extremely accurate positions, basically rough area estimates and going for more of the effect of a moving light.  So I am about to pull the trigger on your suggestion of the DMX dongle.  I truly apologize for this dumb question, but I have been only on one network the past few years and honestly didnt know why you would/even could add more networks...once I incorporated the 8 CCR lights, I did notice at times lag but had no idea what the cause was... SO if I am following you, If I used an additional USB485 connector, it would reduce lag.  I would have to have two USB cables coming out from the computer, and lets say one side powered the left side of the house lights and the other one connected to the right side of the house and now no lag...?  and taking that one step further, make the DMX dongle AuxB network and connect into it via the one Ethernet port with a Cat 5 cable, and the DMX cable out from the dongle to the light fixture.  Then each light has an in and out and using DMX cables connect each.  When looking at the DMX dongle you have, it has both a CAT5 connection as well as the typically one you would use with a printer...so you use the CAT5?

[zman]

Flyinbyu20, where are you located? Someone around you may have a spare iDMX or a console to loan you.

Even though you think you do not need to be precise with your Movers, you will need to know where your start and stop measurments are. You do not want it going all the way to the home position, because as Ken pointed out, some Movers take time to go to starting points etc....

The Holiday Coro dongle is fine and works. As you get more RGB, as in the CCR's, there is a lot more comms moving down the line. Breaking it up is never a bad idea. With the HC Dongle, you will USB to it. You then have the option of going cat5 or XLR to your first DMX light/fixture. The DMX universe you describe is not heavy with lights, but the CCRs will cause traffic. Everything you are describing is going to be initially connected to your computer via USB to the dongles, or USB485's. It is on the other side of those devices that you need Cat5.

Your DMX dongle wont be on your AuxB network. It will be recognized as a TCP/IP address of its own, and you will see that in the Network Preferences DMX Tab when you go to the pulldown.

The nice thing about DMX is that you can map the devices anywhere within the 512 channels. Take a look at the DMX PPT I did at Christmas Expo in 2010. I had 30 minutes to get folks to understand DMX. That presentation was the most concise I could make it for an understanding.

[sax]

And, the hc dongle plugs into your computer USB port. It will be the second output...one for the LOR 485 (alos kinda a dongle I guess) and then the hc dongle.

When people break up their LOR network for lag they generally put their CCR on one and the rest on the other. And LOR has high speed 485 too. But then you have to look at compatability. That is a different thread.

As zman said, the dmx dongle will be different than LOR network. Once you get the dongle plugged up and recognized you set it up in LOR sw using the LOR sw network configurations tab. Not the windows one. If your dongle is installed proper it will show up in the drop down. Dmx is so simple once you start working with it. Once you configure it you only need to add channels and assign them as dmx, universe and channel.

With LOR controllers it is network id and then the channels. Very similar.

Holiday coro has video tutorials on how to set its dongle up. I purchased my dongle with the dumb dmx kit which came with some controllers and lights so I could test and learn. The package was discounted so you get usable items that you can test with cheaper. For someone new to dmx and RGB like I was it helped. I still use these components to verify colors and to test my new cards so I don't see it as a waste of money.

Sax

[flyinbyu20]

Down in Central Florida.  I just started looking over the powerpoint, thanks Mark!  I only made it through the first intro slides, but plan on sitting down and reading the whole thing this weekend.  

you say "Your DMX dongle wont be on your AuxB network. It will be recognized as a TCP/IP address of its own, and you will see that in the Network Preferences DMX Tab when you go to the pulldown."  

 

and also Sax "As zman said, the dmx dongle will be different than LOR network. Once you get the dongle plugged up and recognized you set it up in LOR sw using the LOR sw network configurations tab. Not the windows one. If your dongle is installed proper it will show up in the drop down. Dmx is so simple once you start working with it. Once you configure it you only need to add channels and assign them as dmx, universe and channel."

This is a little confusing, but before I have you guys waste your time explaining to me, I will go a head and buy the Dongle and then see if I understand it once it is here.  So maybe in 1-2 weeks I will come back to this feed with more questions.

Finally "Even though you think you do not need to be precise with your Movers, you will need to know where your start and stop measurments are. You do not want it going all the way to the home position, because as Ken pointed out, some Movers take time to go to starting points etc...."  are you saying that I would need something like this :

 

http://www.amazon.com/EMB-EBDMX1-Performance-Controller-Lighting/dp/B00D8G6B7E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400781699&sr=8-1&keywords=dmx+controller

 

to map out the exact position numbers?  (I went on amazon and selected the first thing that popped up, so not saying I am going to buy this exact one but using it to get the point across)  There is no way to do it through LOR software  (but the iDMX you can?)

[zman]

Getting the dongle and plugging it in will help.

Yes the unit you link is a console that would help. IF you got an iDMX you do not need to get one of these, as the Hardware Editor has one inside it that does the exact same function, just using the UI.

I stated above, there may be another way to avoid getting a console, or iDMX, but I am not familiar with it. (not sure if XLIGHTS or something like that may allow you to do this)

[CLD Kevin]

I just purchased a moving head to try out. It's 16 channels. I used an Enttec Pro (same type as HC) and Xlights to test. The problem with using Xlights for testing is it only has 3 slider bars. So I can only test 3 channels at a time and depending on what effect or position....you may need to turn on several channels at the same time....more than 3. With the iDMX, you have the ability to turn on several channels at once for testing. If trying to figure out positions for moving heads to be used in S3....iDMX is the way to go. I didn't think I needed it anymore so got rid of it. Need it again ...doh!!

[flyinbyu20]

but Kevin, isnt it more cost effective to go with you Enttec Pro ( or in my case the HC) and just buy an actual physical slider to test out the channels rather than pay the roughly 300 for iDMX??? or is it because you just want to do it all through your computer???

[CLD Kevin]

Cost wise to run with the HC will be less for sure. I was just talking about how easy it would be to test and get the position setting with the iDMX. You can still get your position setting with Xlights (using HC) just a bit more pain with only 3 channels at a time.

[flyinbyu20]

gotcha, thanks Kevin.  What kind of moving DMX lights are you buying or have any suggestions on?  

[CLD Kevin]

I can't suggest anything right now because I just purchased it and only some-what tested in my living room. I have yet to test outside or run a sequence.

It's a 360W RGBW moving head with zoom. I just purchased to test and see what I can do with it. Not sure if I will use it this year.

[zman]

I might suggest looking at American DJ products. I have some Chauvet 200Bs and taking some in for work, the well known lighting company I took them to for service, said this. They were not enamored with Chauvet's products and customer service, even for them.

The movers I have now, are used Martin Mac 250's. I scanned Gearsource until I found what I wanted at a decent price.

[flyinbyu20]

ah, I just googled gearsource.  It seems to be an ebay type site for lights?

[zman]

Well, sort of. Gearsource works with a lot of the Show production companies, theme parks etc... and gets the used equipment from them and re-sells it as a broker. Most of the stuff has been very well maintained. I have not really seen "new" stuff listed there.

Again, folks in the industry recommended working with Gearsource. They have done OK by me.

[tbetgeorge]

Well, sort of. Gearsource works with a lot of the Show production companies, theme parks etc... and gets the used equipment from them and re-sells it as a broker. Most of the stuff has been very well maintained. I have not really seen "new" stuff listed there.

Again, folks in the industry recommended working with Gearsource. They have done OK by me.

zman - are you using them outdoors in an inflatable or hard shell case? I'm trying to figure out what will work best for my show next year. I've been playing with moving beams for the past couple months. I'm trying hard to find one that can cut through the sky without haze. So far the brightest I've used is a 15R. I imagine the Martin 2000s would be good, but each lights is 1200 watts (bulb only)! I'd have to install a ton of new breakers to even venture out that direction. Do you have videos of your 250s in action outdoors? Any help is greatly appreciated!

[flyinbyu20]

I can't suggest anything right now because I just purchased it and only some-what tested in my living room. I have yet to test outside or run a sequence.

It's a 360W RGBW moving head with zoom. I just purchased to test and see what I can do with it. Not sure if I will use it this year.

Kevin-  What is the zoom effect?  Does it pinpoint the light or you can make it cover a broad area?

[zman]

zman - are you using them outdoors in an inflatable or hard shell case? I'm trying to figure out what will work best for my show next year. I've been playing with moving beams for the past couple months. I'm trying hard to find one that can cut through the sky without haze. So far the brightest I've used is a 15R. I imagine the Martin 2000s would be good, but each lights is 1200 watts (bulb only)! I'd have to install a ton of new breakers to even venture out that direction. Do you have videos of your 250s in action outdoors? Any help is greatly appreciated!

I got my hands on a deal with some Tempest enclosures. I painted them to look like Christmas Drums. I was told the climate control was toast. I did not care as in Seattle in Dec, heat is one of the last things I need to worry about. However, our Electrical Guru, Pete Peters stopped over and they both were fixed in about 15 minutes.

Video, that's funny........ No, I have no video of the movers, but they are bright. What you are finding is what led me to these guys. Because of the distance to my house, and the "light noise" I had to get a bulb bright enough to be seen.

[flyinbyu20]

Ok, I got the Actidongle V2 but having some issues.

 

First, when I plug in regular RGB DMX lights, they go nuts flashing all types of colors and patterns irregularly.  After about 1-2 hrs of pulling my hair out, I think I came across somewhere that their is  a difference between DMX data and DMX microphone cables.  I bought these :

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10244&cs_id=1024401&p_id=4751&format=2#specifications

 

Could that be it?  

Also, Trying to figure out how to put the lights into DMX mode.  Here is what I see.  DMX 10+ on and in the off column (1~9)  I am very confused by this, pictures attached.  Finally, I also only show this option in LOR S3.  


Thanks Guys

Not sure how to upload more pics, its locking me out saying I only can upload another 5.83kb

[zman]

A couple things. First off, you will need a DMX terminator on the end of your DMX chain. That is not your problem, but it is going to help with troubleshooting down the road (one less thing to have to fret about).

Next, the link you provided is just an upgraded microphone cable. Again, not your problem, it will work, but it is not a DMX cable. DMX cables have shielding in them where microphone does not. Folks use CAT5 to connect DMX devices, which is unshielded too, you just have to be aware of what is around it so you do not get interference. Same with the microphone cable.

So what you are experiencing is the fact that DMX fixtures, when they do not have a DMX signal they sense, they usually have a random pattern that they output when plugged into power. It is the main way you know there is a problem. If DMX is sensed, the light will be off when power is applied. DMX is a constant data stream, and the lights only listen to the channels you have set in your DMX map (1-512).

What DMX ID is your lights set for? If out of the box, the assumption is 1. Meaning in your DMX map, DMX channels 1-4 (based on your picture) control this light.

Just plugging everything together is not going to make the above happen. This is where the iDMX and Hardware Editor, or a DMX Console would help. Because you could test outside of a formal LOR sequence.

According to your picture:

Channel1 is strobe / on. DMX value 1-127 is going to strobe at difference speeds. You need to play with this to see what you want. Anything starting at DMX value 128 on this channel is going to turn the light on and give you dimming to full on

Channel2 is Red. Same thing any DMX value 1-255 is going to give you red from dim to bright

Channel3 is Blue. Same as above (1-255)

Channel4 is Green. Same as above (1-255)

In a sequence you need to add 4 DMX channels and have them output to your V2. I would create a test sequence like this:

Make it a 2 minute Animation sequence (no music)

If you got the 4 light set as mentioned above, and you want to control them individually and not all the same (that is referred to as slaves) then:

Light 1 needs to have an DMX ID of 1 (This is done on the light somehow)

Light 2 needs to have an DMX ID an ID of 5 (This is done on the light somehow)

Light 3 needs to have an DMX ID an ID of 9 (This is done on the light somehow)

Light 4 needs to have an DMX ID an ID of 13 (This is done on the light somehow)

In the 4 light scenario, your test sequence will have 16 channels in it. 4 for each light.

Create a show and play it. Loop the sequence. That should give you some output to see.

The only thing you should maybe note is that I think there was some issue with Holiday Coro's dongle and it output DMX by +1 channel? Don't quote me on that, I just remember something about that. Ignore this statement for now.

Edited June 3, 2014 by zman