Waterproofing question

[TheJackal]

I need some ideas on what to do with the open plugs on the string ends. Some advocate taping, some not. I've even read where baby safety plugs is another idea. I don't PLAN on having any ends on the ground, but even the ones at the top of my trees and house will get some snow.

[Dave Batzdorf]

IMO - I do not worry about the open ends.  Just as longs as they stay out of the water.  It doesn't matter if they get wet as it will not complete the circuit, just keep them out of the open water puddles.

[Grinch]

I did not plug mine this last year and with the freezing rain and snow the ice built up over the ends and then completed the circuit.  I am also looking for the something that will work for this year.

[Max-Paul]

Going to play the devils advocate here for a minute Grinch. You say that the ice completed the circuit. How did you determine this fact? And Dave how do you know it did not complete the circuit? What does complete the circuit supposed to mean? You both seem to be certain in your statements, but I am wondering what you mean about this circuit business.

 

Jackel this water proofing is tricky business. Note something that is easy to do. Even if you take lets say the last 6" of cord and turn it back up under a glass jar. You will find that water can creep bacj up the wire due to the capillary effect. Best bet is just to keep it out of standing water and if possible, keep the end also away from anything that conducts for as far as you can.

[htebault]

Don't use tape - it will only serve to trap moisture. It doesn't freeze here in Calif - but we hopefully get rain in the winter, and I use GFI on all power and then keep the plug/socket connections off the ground. I've not had any problem. I use vampire plugs on all light circuits to the controllers. 

I also found that using metal tomato cages to create mini-trees requires the use of a PVC stand off to keep the metal frame from sitting on the ground - That was a first year surprise that did cause GFI tripping and troubleshooting to find the problem.  I use a 3/4" pvc pipe driven into the ground - that supports the tomato cage, keeping it off the ground - since then - no problems.

[Alien407]

I cover mine in electrical tape and do all that I can to make sure they are not in standing water and the end is pointed down.  The baby proof plug, taped over should work well.

[indi]

Last year was my second year. The first year I didn't have any problems with rain. However, this year we has an ice storm and the first eight channels on controller #1 trip my GFI breaker. I had to narrow it down and found it was one of my mini trees. All the plugs where covered in ice. I broke the ice from them and the problems stopped. I try to have all the plugs facing down. I don't know how to waterproof them. Unless we have ice, I down normally have any problems.

[Grinch]

Going to play the devils advocate here for a minute Grinch. You say that the ice completed the circuit. How did you determine this fact? And Dave how do you know it did not complete the circuit? What does complete the circuit supposed to mean? You both seem to be certain in your statements, but I am wondering what you mean about this circuit business.

 

Jackel this water proofing is tricky business. Note something that is easy to do. Even if you take lets say the last 6" of cord and turn it back up under a glass jar. You will find that water can creep bacj up the wire due to the capillary effect. Best bet is just to keep it out of standing water and if possible, keep the end also away from anything that conducts for as far as you can.

Max-Paul

I was just trying to keep the wording simple but to explain.  We had freezing rain last year and the GFI  tripped and would not reset. Went out with a flash light and found ice built up over the plug ends and chipped the ice off and used my breath to blow out the plug ends.  Reset the GFI which then stayed ON.  When I said completed the circuit I meant shorted the plug end.  Sorry for any confusion

[Max-Paul]

No problem Grinch. I was just wondering why you said it would and Dave said it would not.

 

Any time you have current flowing as it is clear you did. You have a circuit, even if it is just .000,001 Amp (or also known as 1 micro Amp.) Just a bit of info for anyone, not directed at you Grinch, more for Dave's info.  More info, sure there is ultra pure water that will not conduct per say. Even seen an ultra clean T.V. dunked into this kind of water and keep on working. But folk, rain water is not ultra pure, nor is your string of lights. Thus there will always be a circuit when moisture is present. All you and I can do is to minimize the amount of current that will flow from the hot lead to the neutral lead or contact. Hanging the open end down. promote drainage, put under shelter, and keep away from things that conduct. Once you have done all of that and maybe a few other suggestions that someone else will come up with. Is a crap shoot after that.

[Bernie]

I need some ideas on what to do with the open plugs on the string ends. Some advocate taping, some not. I've even read where baby safety plugs is another idea. I don't PLAN on having any ends on the ground, but even the ones at the top of my trees and house will get some snow.

Cover the plug ends in dielectric silicone grease and do not wipe off.  

Edited March 16, 2014 by Bernie

[Bernie]

Edited post to change plumbers silicone grease to dielectric silicone grease....

[George Simmons]

I've not done anything to "waterproof" any connections in my display.  With about 680 ordinary channels, I've got cords and connections laying around everywhere - hundreds and hundreds of them.  We've had winters (like this one) where the snow was so deep that mini trees got almost totally covered, and it stayed that way for the entire lighting season.  Since 2008 the only problems I've had was a GFCI or three tripping during nights with heavy rain.  (Can hardly fault them for doing what they were designed to do.)  Taping the open ends wouldn't have prevented any of those occasions.

 

And what about those of you use incandescent mini lights and also tape your ends - do y'all tape every light socket too?  You should - those allow as much water to enter as un-taped ends allow.  What good do you think it does for you to tape the ends of the strings while leaving all those porous sockets open?  If you're worried about "completing a circuit", the distance between the exposed wires in the base of a light socket is a whole lot closer than a plug end.  Oops - you probably didn't know that.  Sorry for peeing in your cereal.  Do y'all slobber grease around the base of your C7 and C9 lights also?  You should if you want to be thorough.  Where do you think the rain that runs down the outside of those bulbs go?

 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is a totally ridiculous thread.  It doesn't matter what you do, the only way you're going to prevent water from getting in is to keep your lights inside.  As has been said, keep connections out of puddles and save your angst, your tape, your grease, and your wasted effort.  

 

Just saying.

[Deacon]

I used the baby proofing end caps but only had them light strings connected to one electrical circuit.  I had three circuits, 3 different circuit breakers, that had lights/controllers connected and I didn't notice any difference.  Although we had only one big rain storm (California rain storn) and it didn't do anything to gfci's or affect anything.  Like others have mentioned, I think as long as they're not submerged in a puddle or subject to constant direct water flow, they should be ok but it never hurts to try and make them water resistant. 

[TheJackal]

Jackel this water proofing is tricky business. Note something that is easy to do. Even if you take lets say the last 6" of cord and turn it back up under a glass jar. You will find that water can creep bacj up the wire due to the capillary effect. Best bet is just to keep it out of standing water and if possible, keep the end also away from anything that conducts for as far as you can.

I'm not electrically naive. I understand you can't totally waterproof anything without making it inoperable and unusable. It's not rain that concerns me, it's melting snow and ice.

 

Don't use tape - it will only serve to trap moisture. It doesn't freeze here in Calif - but we hopefully get rain in the winter, and I use GFI on all power and then keep the plug/socket connections off the ground. I've not had any problem. I use vampire plugs on all light circuits to the controllers. 

I also found that using metal tomato cages to create mini-trees requires the use of a PVC stand off to keep the metal frame from sitting on the ground - That was a first year surprise that did cause GFI tripping and troubleshooting to find the problem.  I use a 3/4" pvc pipe driven into the ground - that supports the tomato cage, keeping it off the ground - since then - no problems.

I didn't even consider using electrical tape to try and keep water out of a socket and I'm making my mini-trees out of 1/2" PVC. Yes, tomato cages would be much cheaper, but with PVC, I can make them MY height and shape.

 

Last year was my second year. The first year I didn't have any problems with rain. However, this year we has an ice storm and the first eight channels on controller #1 trip my GFI breaker. I had to narrow it down and found it was one of my mini trees. All the plugs where covered in ice. I broke the ice from them and the problems stopped. I try to have all the plugs facing down. I don't know how to waterproof them. Unless we have ice, I down normally have any problems.

Ice and snow are more my concern than rain. Actually, it's the MELTING ice/snow that's more concerning. The 2 weeks leading into Christmas, I would be getting home after the show should have started. I would hate to come driving down the block to a dark house because a GFCI or breaker tripped.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is a totally ridiculous thread.  It doesn't matter what you do, the only way you're going to prevent water from getting in is to keep your lights inside.  As has been said, keep connections out of puddles and save your angst, your tape, your grease, and your wasted effort.  

 

Just saying.

George, I take all advice with a grain of salt. I understand your point of view and I totally agree there's no way to totally waterproof the ends other than not using it. My question was directed more at the starting ends at the start of my mini and mega trees. When we get snow, and we will, it will cover those ends. Karma being what it is, if I raise the ends 6", we will get 1'....if I raise it 1', we will get 2'. I probably should have asked "Will exposed ends covered in snow be OK?"

 

Thanks for everyone's replies

Eddi D

[plasmadrive]

First off, you seem to be having issues more with ice built up if I read this correctly... or at least someone put that on here. 

 

Personally what I do is make sure the last end of the string is facing down so water drips off.  We don't get snow here so not so much of an issue. 

 

But if I were really worried about the build up of ice I might put a small plastic baggie over the end and then face it up so the water doesn't run into the baggie.  I have even put PCBs in baggies and wire tied the end, faced the open part down, and they work all winter. 

 

I actually think George is pretty much right in this case.   Those lights are made to work outside. just keep them from getting puddling water. 

 

There really is no 100% fix that is practical.

[Don]

Ditto what George said ... I've never taped/sealed, etc., any light plug in my years of doing a display. 

[Grinch]

Different Parts of the country have different weather. So what works for one person might not work for another.  Yes it is impossible to waterproof everything unless you bring it all inside as George stated, and Yes the lights are indoor/outdoor rated which means they can get wet.  It doesn't mean they will work 100 % with out an issue.  In Texas you really don't have to worry about Snow and in Minnesota you get more Snow then you would get freezing rain, but somewhere in between someone gets more freezing rain than both of you.  I don't think the original post was asking for a 100% fix, he was just looking for ideas to help reduce the number of problems.  I personally had no problems with my lights buried in snow or working in the rain.  But when we got freezing rain and the plug ends were the size of golf balls with ice the GFI tripped repeatably, it did not matter if the plugs faced up or down they were covered in ice.  You can't fault someone for trying to solve a problem because someday someone might figure it out.

[George Simmons]

It wasn't my intent to fault anyone.  I was simply trying to point out that there really isn't any way to prevent water from getting in.  And in so doing, I hoped it would save newbies a great deal of needless angst and useless effort trying to remedy a situation that doesn't exist.

 

Ice is a different story, although except for GFCI trips, it typically will only cause an issue when water freezes inside a plug/receptacle (or the base of a light) and expands between two contacts so as to prevent them from making said contact. 

[Bizywk]

Its funny to see how many different approaches are taken on this issue.  Its almost like asking about a favorite sports team.    From our perspective we've always electrical taped and sometimes used di-electric grease for out static displays and never had a single GFI trip.  Last year was our first with animated displays and I was swayed to leave the open electrical ends open.   After a good long drizzly rain, we missed a couple of nights trying to get the plugs dried back out.  Before it was all over, I was out there with an air compressor.  The next day, I went back out and taped all the connectors again tightly as we did in previous years, and didn't have another issue the whole season.   

 

For us, there is no question - tape heavily.

[TheJackal]

First off, you seem to be having issues more with ice built up if I read this correctly... or at least someone put that on here. 

 

Personally what I do is make sure the last end of the string is facing down so water drips off.  We don't get snow here so not so much of an issue. 

 

But if I were really worried about the build up of ice I might put a small plastic baggie over the end and then face it up so the water doesn't run into the baggie.  I have even put PCBs in baggies and wire tied the end, faced the open part down, and they work all winter. 

 

I actually think George is pretty much right in this case.   Those lights are made to work outside. just keep them from getting puddling water. 

 

There really is no 100% fix that is practical.

Yes, ice is a problem. But, snow even more so.

 

 I don't think the original post was asking for a 100% fix, he was just looking for ideas to help reduce the number of problems.  I personally had no problems with my lights buried in snow or working in the rain. 

I'd be naive in thinking there's a 100%/foolproof 'fix'. I'm just looking to reduce any possible problems.

 

Its funny to see how many different approaches are taken on this issue.  Its almost like asking about a favorite sports team.    From our perspective we've always electrical taped and sometimes used di-electric grease for out static displays and never had a single GFI trip.  Last year was our first with animated displays and I was swayed to leave the open electrical ends open.   After a good long drizzly rain, we missed a couple of nights trying to get the plugs dried back out.  Before it was all over, I was out there with an air compressor.  The next day, I went back out and taped all the connectors again tightly as we did in previous years, and didn't have another issue the whole season.   

 

For us, there is no question - tape heavily.

Exactly. You could have 1 person using nothing with no problems and another placing tape around a baggie inside a plastic tub tripping GFCI's everyday. This makes it confusing for a newbie.