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Fire! Help, what did I do wrong?


Klayfish

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Now that I'm thinking about it, something has me confused.  Maybe a simple question, but I'm a novice at electrical work (I had a licensed electrician to all the installs of my outlets).  Like I mentioned earlier, my wife said she noticed what turned out to be channel 9 was steady on when she got home Friday evening.  That's when it was raining.  My show was still going, except my mini trees which had tripped the GFI (they're not on the same controller or circuit/outlet as the item in question here).  When I went outside on Saturday to reset my GFIs, it was daytime, so the show wasn't trying to run.  That's when I reset the GFI.  5 seconds later, I heard the GFI pop again and maybe 10-20 seconds later when I actually looked at the box is when I saw the smoke.  Ultimately the most fried area you see in that picture is the channel 9-10 area.  If the show wasn't running, why did it fry when I reset my GFI on Saturday afternoon?  Also, what could have been going on Friday night when that channel was stuck on as the rest were still functioning?

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Where your burn happened had nothing to do with the show wanting to run or not.  Most likely the major damage was from the night before.  When you reset the GFI you most likely just started the burning process all over again..

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Sorry Folks I was not trying to confuse anyone. As long as there is power present to the controller (if you don't shut off the power using a timer or turn off the breaker) there will be line voltage going to the input of the fuse all the time. If something bridged the line (HOT) with a grounded point or Neutral it could have initially created the problem. A triac normally fails shorted in my experience working with them for many years(SCRs as well). The channel would stay lit with no control of that channel. Your GFCI circuit was working correctly because they are designed to pickup water (ground fault) . LOR maybe able to do a post mortum on the PCB. The heatsinks and ground traces are the only ground references you have on the PCB. The neutral from your incoming power source ties to the PCB ground traces. The ground wires tie to the heatsink like a chasis ground.  The ground wire is only functional if the power receptacle is grounded either by thin wall which is bonded at the load center or a wire tied to a known grounded surface.

 

I just replaced a triac on one of my oldest controllers CTB16-PC also has the same enclosure you have. 1st one in 7 years!  I might of had a faulty lamp socket which may have sent too much current or reverse voltage to the triac.

Have you heard from LOR yet?

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Hey Marty,

 

Check your controllers.. if you have the CTB16PC I don't think the heatsink is grounded.. The plate that holds the strain reliefs is grounded.. but not the heatsink.. Also the N on the board is not tied to the heatsink... at least not on mine. 

 

You can't tie N to G in the controller by code.  I am guessing that the OP issue was from L to N and before the fuse..

 

Craig

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Hi Craig,

You are absolutely correct on the ground wires! They are tied to the cable strain relief plate which I forgot is a separate plate. The neutral ties to the PCB neutral traces or spade connectors.  Thanks for the follow up on that!  I agree with you on the OP issue also.

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Nope, the heat sinks are not grounded on the V1 or V2 CTB16PC's I have either.  

 

The only ground to them is via the triacs grounding tab on top of the triac from the PCB itself where the one leg of the triac is internally connected to the metal tab on top of each triac. 

 

There are definitely no grounding wires connected to the heatsinks from grounding pad below the PCB at the bottom of the enclosure. 

 

At least not on any of my CTB16PC controllers, there is no heat sink is connected directly to that grounding pad where all the green wires go from the dangles and the incoming power cords.

 

And I would think the newer G3 controllers would have this same set up, but not having one yet, can't say for certain on a G3 controller.

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Yeah, I am getting old! I need my magnifiers to solder which I still do well, with the magnifier light of course.

 

I went back to make sure I did not mess up anything on my CTB16Ds either. I have 8 of those and 2 CTB16-PCs, and 3 LOR 800Ws. I am building 2 more CTB16Ds. Once in awhile I need to discuss this stuff with all you folks! It is a great learning experience. I appreciate everyone's input.

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Yeah, I am getting old! I need my magnifiers to solder which I still do well, with the magnifier light of course.

 

I went back to make sure I did not mess up anything on my CTB16Ds either. I have 8 of those and 2 CTB16-PCs, and 3 LOR 800Ws. I am building 2 more CTB16Ds. Once in awhile I need to discuss this stuff with all you folks! It is a great learning experience. I appreciate everyone's input.

LOL!! Glad I am not the only one that needs the "Old Man Glasses" as we call them.. Those magnifiers are life savers..   B)

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Where your burn happened had nothing to do with the show wanting to run or not.  Most likely the major damage was from the night before.  When you reset the GFI you most likely just started the burning process all over again..

 

So would that be why the one channel was stuck on the night before? 

 

A huge, major thank you to everyone on this board for such quick responses, and an even bigger thank you to the folks at LOR.  They were immediately responsive, even on the weekend and have taken absolutely golden care of me.  It has made what could have been a disaster a very wonderful holiday for me.  I very much appreciate it!!!  I hope to be back up and running by Thursday or Friday (depending on weather conditions).

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Glad to hear the good news! LOR has been good to me in the past as well! KUDOS to LOR!

Now get your show running again!

 

Marty

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I am glad to hear you will be up and running soon! LOR is a fantastic company. KUDOS to LOR!

 

I just repaired one channel that stayed lit. It was one of my controllers I put on the roof for my displays there. A blow mold reindeer C7 lamp base may have been the culprit. It was an old style lamp base and may have arced enough internally to cause a transient (sort of a voltage spike) in the line voltage on that circuit. A condition of  instability that solid state devices do not like.  First time in 7 years on 13 controllers I run!

 

LOR sent me a triac and Opto coupler just in case it was not just the triac with in a few days and I repaired it and back up again!

 

LOR has robust controllers as far as I am concerned. Now watch lightening will blow the hell out of systems now that I said that!

 

NOW GET YOUR SHOW BACK ON THE ROAD!  

 

Happy Holidays Klayfish!

 

Marty

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I too am paranoid of small critters getting in thru the cat-5e opening of the CTB controllers.  I conformal coat both sides of the PC boards.  I once found an Anole (lizard) living in one of my controllers last Christmas.  Luckily it didn't damage anything when the show was going on.

 

I now stuff tissue paper in the hole where the cat-5e cables enter the controller.  Compact it as hard as you can to prevent the critters from moving the tissue paper away.

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I now stuff tissue paper in the hole where the cat-5e cables enter the controller.  Compact it as hard as you can to prevent the critters from moving the tissue paper away.

 

I use these weatherproof connectors, they are cheap protection, or you can just search for RJ45-ECS,

 

http://www.wifiglobaldepot.com/product_info.php?products_id=5178

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I too am paranoid of small critters getting in thru the cat-5e opening of the CTB controllers.  I conformal coat both sides of the PC boards.  I once found an Anole (lizard) living in one of my controllers last Christmas.  Luckily it didn't damage anything when the show was going on.

 

I now stuff tissue paper in the hole where the cat-5e cables enter the controller.  Compact it as hard as you can to prevent the critters from moving the tissue paper away.

I wouldn't recommend tissue paper, there are quite a few critters that eat paper products.  I have yet to find any of my styrofoam PVC insulation chewed up, plus it's also not as flammable as tissue paper could be.  Another issue with paper, if it gets wet somehow, it's going to deterioate and fall out or worse, could do just what happened to Klayfish's controller.

 

Definitely would not advise anyone to use tissue paper, and the styrofoam insulation I use is cheap, paid around $1.20 for 6 feet of it and it only takes two very small pieces to jam in the bottom entrance/exit around the cat5 and another to jam in the top entrance/exit area around the cat5 near the PCB.

 

Before I used this, I was getting all kinds of critters {frogs, lizards, Palmetto bugs} and one fried lizard {probably an anole} in one of my controllers the first year I was in this.  Was lucky that lizard didn't start a fire, found him BEHIND the PCB when I took the controller apart and part of him fell out, he was one crispy critter.  

 

And I also really hate opening a controller and then have some stupid critter leap out at me! LOL

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Received my new controller last night.  Just need to assemble it and get it outside.  I started assembling last night, but housework obligations and kid time stopped me from completing it.  Hoping to have time to finish it tonight and be up and running tomorrow...  If I'm lucky, some of the snow we got yesterday will melt.

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Oh what the heck.  Let's throw my theory in there.  Having let the smoke out of a few things in my life.  Did you drop a screw/tool by any chance and it fell back behind the PCB thus causing a short circuit?  Second is there any way you could have applied power to the end of one of your light strings thus back feeding into the board.  This would seem as higher probability do to the fact that had you accidentally used a source on a different leg/phase and thus created a 240 volt potential, that definately would produce a catastrophic fire like this.  There's a lot of us christmas decorators doing weird wiring these days.

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