Fire! Help, what did I do wrong?

[Marty Spain]

Sorry about your meltdown!  It is possible something short circuit from the line side of the fuse to a hot circuit causing the problem. Usually high resistance failures take some time  to burn up a connection. If there is severe arc flashing at the failure it would happen quicker. Or as Max Paul mentioned a critter may have bridged across a ground or neutral and hot connection. You should use a stanchion of some kind to elevate your electronics. I built my own stanchions which keep the controller about 2 feet off the ground. I have openings not sealed and in 7 years have not had trouble, lucky maybe but going forward keep your controllers upright as the box was designed for. 

 

I have plastic covering my 3R enclosures as well , just in case!  They are exposed to rain , snow and sub zero weather sometimes here in my area. If you cant get a controller , I have one spare CTB16-PC I just repaired if you are in a bind. I have two more CTB16-Ds I am building. So I could spare this one.

 

Good luck !

Marty

www.pbase.com/hejhog

[Tim Fischer]

I rested my controllers on the ground for my first few years, elevating the top up on a board or brick to make sure water didn't go up through the bottom.  One year I went inside one and found out snow was drifting in (not a lot, but enough to alarm me) through the hinge since it was at ground level.  That was enough for me to elevate the controllers a couple feet of the ground on stakes in future years.  They don't have to be any thing fancy - just bang a 1x2 in the ground and screw the controller on it.  That's basically what I do (I actually make a "T" so it hangs better).

It's unlikely that a small-enough critter would find their way into my controllers in December - it was -11 when I woke up this morning lol.

[Dad02]

Sorry about the fire, we got rain that day too and I always shut down during the rain. The equipment is just too fragile to risk it, even with wet connections after the controller. Snow is never a problem. For the right price I'm sure this stuff could be made for scuba diving but we would be gasping for air.

Hats off to Marty for offering up a spare.

[shfr26]

I agree with Tim,  too cold for critters.  Probably something else.

[Klayfish]

Marty,

Thanks for the offer!!  LOR has been very responsive so far, so I'm hoping they'll be able to get me a new controller in the mail first thing Monday morning.  But if not, I'll be in touch. 

 

I wish I could figure out what it was that caused it, but I guess I may never know.  Definitely getting them off the ground and won't even attempt to run the show in the rain. 

 

The day it rained, the temperature actually started out around 60 degrees in the morning and sank into the 40s during the daytime, so perhaps something did crawl out.

[Surfing4Dough]

Traditionally, LOR has been very responsive in similar situations in the past.  I suspect you will have a new controller in a couple days (have even seen them overnight ship them). 

 

Though probably not a lizard like Orville mentioned, it is possible it was a critter on a warmer day.  I would take the board out of the enclosure and inspect the back side -- seems that I recall people mentioning that they like to hide there since it is warm and hidden more.  You might find evidence/remains there. 

 

If you mount the enclosures upright and off the ground (screwed tight, but not with any other modifications to the enclosures such as weatherstripping since it will interfere with their design), you should be fine in the rain/snow.  These enclosures are designed for such weather, IF mounted upright.  You wouldn't see the utility companies using similar enclosures for their equipment if they were weather-proof. 

 

Fence posts like these work well, and are inexpensive at Lowes/Home Depot (~$3).  I use 2 per controller (just using the mounting holes on the enclosure to bolt onto the posts).  Once the spade is in the ground, and the ground freezes, they are quite difficult to remove, particularly with the controller attached.  This helps create another ounce of theft prevention.  FYI, don't hammer the posts into the ground with the controller attached to help prevent damage to the electronics.

 

[Marty Spain]

LOR usually comes through even during the busy season! Dan & Mary have a great company!

 

Water is a strange thing, I worked for Motorola for 34 years as a SMT tech PCB manufacturing base radios(Infrastructure). I have seen many different things happen with circuit boards. Water by nature is not conductive, but...that is in it's pure state.  The fact that rain water has salts and other impurities in it which are very conductive cause the problem. I was a laser expert also, we used DI water in high voltage to cool laser rods ,Very high resistivity so it would not cause shorting.

 

I use NEMA 3R enclosures which are designed for outside use, mine are not sealed , but being upright they protect the electronics nicely. I have never had issues with these, My cat cables have a dedicated opening which is open to anything that wants to get in! I should seal them, but critters have not entered causing trouble. I will buy the sealed connectors down the road to make them comply with NEC codes.

If you like building kits go for the CTB16-D series DIY kits. If you are not into that , the CTB 16-PC complete system like you have( I assume) are great , just lower current capacity.

 

I have 2 units CTB 16-PCs on my roof snugged up against my chimney secured and covered. All the rest 16 channel systems I built using the 40 amp kits.

 

Sorry I am rambling on! If you need any assistance in the future I am available!

 

Happy Holidays! Marty

[Marty Spain]

Yes the "Y" posts are great for stanchions, I started with wood and started changing the wood out for the posts with a piece of plywood  to anchor the controllers. Good idea Surfing 4 Dough!

What I would like to do is create locking enclosures anchored to ground as an anti-theft measure.

[Surfing4Dough]

Yes the "Y" posts are great for stanchions, I started with wood and started changing the wood out for the posts with a piece of plywood  to anchor the controllers. Good idea Surfing 4 Dough!

What I would like to do is create locking enclosures anchored to ground as an anti-theft measure.

 Put a padlock on the enclosures you have. 

[Marty Spain]

Yes I agree with that. I want to build an enclosure to go over the entire stanchion and then lock it. This may sound overkill, but it adds to making it a little more secure. I have only had a few cables cut this year so far. I live close to our High school and the sidewalk is on my side of the street . So far that isn't too bad.

[rainyoregonchristmas]

Rain.... Last year it rained EVERY DAY my display was running.  Sure it tripped, but only if a connection slipped and fell into a puddle.  Take it from another Oregonian...  Rain is ok!  Not as big a deal as some people think.  If we shut down in the rain on a normal year we might run 7 days during the holiday season.  If you're worried, just drape a black plastic trash bag over the controller, with the bottom open where the cords come out to help prevent condensation.... or the "Rain" on the inside. 

 

Gotta love LOR they treat us right.  This is also why veterans recommend to us newbies to carry a spare a spare board.  That or have a section of your display designed so you can pull a board and move it if need be.  Like a sacrificial element.  I have a spare board kit my wife bought me during the grab sale... it was cheap...I just haven't put it together yet.  Sure and outage would make me solder in a hurry...maybe even make me "Sick" enough that I'd have to use said "Time" to make sure the show did run that night.

 

Good luck getting up and running

 

-rainyoregonchristmas

[Tim Fischer]

What I would like to do is create locking enclosures anchored to ground as an anti-theft measure.

I run a thick "airline cable" from a nearby tree or other 'immobile" object to my controller boxes, and padlock them closed and to the cable.  Is it theft-proof?  Absolutely not.  But it definitely prevents "grab and go", and they'd have to expend a lot of time and make a bit of noise if they wanted them. 

Personally I think you're far more likely to have major vandalism (like your cut cables, which could have even been bunnies) or theft of your actual display elements than controller theft.

[Marty Spain]

Yes I agree with your assessment on this. So far that has been the case in 7 years.

[OrlandoChristmas]

I would do what Tim here said above me. I would run a cable from the controller to a tree or attach it to the wall somehow. Then put a padlock on the controller. This is relatively theft proof. The only way it could be stolen is if they break the plastic enclosure where the lock is attached. Still there would be noise created, enough for you to notice, certainly. Anywho, I've rambled on long enough. Good luck with your controller!

[Jeff Messer]

Stake and zipties and a 5 gallon buckets does the trick. I place garbage bags on the ones I can get the 5 gallon bucket over. LOL

 

Jeff 

[gwallman1]

This thread really has me nervous, probably more than anything because the cause isn't truly known.  But the reason I'm nervous is because I mount all of my controllers inside the garage, rather than outside.  All of mine were the kits that I assembled myself, so I do not have the weather enclosures.  I was also afraid someone might think it would be fun/funny to try to steal them.  So we knocked out 1/2 brick on the side of the garage, put one of the plastic electrical boxes in (what is inside your walls that the outlets sit in), and pass multi-conductor cables through that hole and up to 4-outlet boxes on the other end of the cables.  That also means I can screw the wires directly into the terminals rather than having an individual plug for each channel.

But the fact they are inside the garage means if one were to catch fire as shown here, the whole garage and house could go up in flames!  I've been running them for 6 years without any issues, but you never know when something might develop.

I don't mean to take away from Klayfish's issues and the various suggestions and help offered to him, but do you think I've got a valid concern or think I'm overreacting?  Hopefully the latter, as this is the first fire I've seen/heard about, so appears the risk is pretty small.

Thanks.

[Surfing4Dough]

This thread really has me nervous, probably more than anything because the cause isn't truly known.  But the reason I'm nervous is because I mount all of my controllers inside the garage, rather than outside.  All of mine were the kits that I assembled myself, so I do not have the weather enclosures.  I was also afraid someone might think it would be fun/funny to try to steal them.  So we knocked out 1/2 brick on the side of the garage, put one of the plastic electrical boxes in (what is inside your walls that the outlets sit in), and pass multi-conductor cables through that hole and up to 4-outlet boxes on the other end of the cables.  That also means I can screw the wires directly into the terminals rather than having an individual plug for each channel.

But the fact they are inside the garage means if one were to catch fire as shown here, the whole garage and house could go up in flames!  I've been running them for 6 years without any issues, but you never know when something might develop.

I don't mean to take away from Klayfish's issues and the various suggestions and help offered to him, but do you think I've got a valid concern or think I'm overreacting?  Hopefully the latter, as this is the first fire I've seen/heard about, so appears the risk is pretty small.

Thanks.

 

Better stop using anything that requires electricity in your house then since the potential is always there.  Plus it must be a pain every time it storms worrying that lightning might hit the house too.  Just saying... 

[Klayfish]

The way I laid out my display won't really look good if I hang my controllers from a post.  In hindsight, I should have put them somewhere else, but I wanted them close to the features, so I could minimize the need for cord.  I can't move them now, as I'd need more cord.  So what I'll do is put them on a tupperware box like I did last year, wrapped like a present...then put another present looking box on top of that to make it look like a gift stack.  I'll make sure there's ventilation, so as to allow airflow and prevent condensation.  That should keep critters out, if indeed that was the cause here.  I know it rains a lot in some places of the country, but not a ton here.  My mini trees always trip my GFI anyway, since they're metal on the ground, so I won't even try to run in the rain.  Still trying to figure out a way to prevent the mini's from tripping GFIs.  I had them up on small PVC "feet" last year, which didn't work (and had connections off the ground).  Thinking maybe if I mount them to coroplast and then secure the coroplast to the ground...  Anyway, for now, I just won't run in rain just to be safe.

Waiting to hear from LOR this morning and hope they can get another controller out to me ASAP.

Oh...and I'll always open the box from now on after rain just to check for bugs/critters.

[Marty Spain]

I have been looking at the burnt points on Klayfish's  controller and see that the area that might have been the point of origin where the problem started was at the line side of the fuse and close to a neutral feed. There may have been a large arc flash between the neutral and line voltage which usually will shut down the breaker. This would mean you would have to have a proper ground plane to trip the breaker.

 

If you have a floating ground or no ground the circuit will not trip. The ground bond must be from the load center all the way out to the outlets you hook the controllers to. If you have a polarity tester this can be checked. A VOM  can do this as well but you need to check the neutral with one test probe and the other to the ground. I just did some electrical work on a friends house and found 120 volts to ground! This means no ground bond present and possibly a circuit outlet may be wired backwards. I have seen this many times. People that do their own wiring with some knowledge ,( just enough to be dangerous) may not notice this. The circuit will work, but if you ground yourself to a metal part of the device plugged in to that outlet you will become the load! The thing about this is if the device shorts out internally it will burn up before a circuit is tripped or not tripped at all.

 

Check your circuits for proper grounding and polarity. Yes AC has polarity, trickier than with DC . I am concerned that  the short kept arcing  until you unplugged the controller.

 

You can buy a plug in polarity tester. I have one and a multitude of volt meters.

We can talk off line if you would like.

[plasmadrive]

I have been looking at the burnt points on Klayfish's  controller and see that the area that might have been the point of origin where the problem started was at the line side of the fuse and close to a neutral feed. There may have been a large arc flash between the neutral and line voltage which usually will shut down the breaker. This would mean you would have to have a proper ground plane to trip the breaker.

 

If you have a floating ground or no ground the circuit will not trip. The ground bond must be from the load center all the way out to the outlets you hook the controllers to. If you have a polarity tester this can be checked. A VOM  can do this as well but you need to check the neutral with one test probe and the other to the ground. I just did some electrical work on a friends house and found 120 volts to ground! This means no ground bond present and possibly a circuit outlet may be wired backwards. I have seen this many times. People that do their own wiring with some knowledge ,( just enough to be dangerous) may not notice this. The circuit will work, but if you ground yourself to a metal part of the device plugged in to that outlet you will become the load! The thing about this is if the device shorts out internally it will burn up before a circuit is tripped or not tripped at all.

 

Check your circuits for proper grounding and polarity. Yes AC has polarity, trickier than with DC . I am concerned that  the short kept arcing  until you unplugged the controller.

 

You can buy a plug in polarity tester. I have one and a multitude of volt meters.

We can talk off line if you would like.

aaahhh.....   Not really.. With all due respect....

 

First off the breaker does not need ground to trip.  A short from L to N will cause a trip just the same.  The breaker has no idea where the current goes.  Current in a series circuit is the same..  so whether it goes to G or N, the breaker doesn't care.  That is why you can trip a breaker with a two wire cord... one without the ground!  Also, there is no ground on that PCB... At least not one I know of..

If whatever fried, critter or just minerals didn't overload his breaker.. it wouldn't trip.  Could have just sat there and fried until it reached a temp that caused a fire.... or it would have just flashed and started the fire.. But if the latter is the case, there would have needed to be something there to burn as fuel..