type of LEDs

[MRGRINCH12]

Getting ready to take the plunge and there are so many variables with LED's. Which size are the best value and is sealed strand or removable bulbs better. I am in Oregon so they get drenched for a full 30 days.

[SteveMaris]

C6 sealed. 

[testraub]

I use a lot of M6 strings both sealed and unsealed.  On the unsealed one I remove every bulb and "no-lox" them (it's a paste for putting copper and aluminum together used by electricians) .  It seemed to help this past winter, no failures due to corrision.

 

Tom Straub

[Baron1414]

I am in Florida, with alot of rain at times also.  I like M6's for bushes, mini trees and C6's for the rest.  But, definately sealed lights with no issues last several years.

[Orville]

Removeable for me.  But also use the automotive non-conductive paste used in automobile lamp sockets to prevent corrosion.   I got to try a couple of sealed strings, won't bother with them.  Had one fail completely after about a month, the other had several L.E.D. bulbs burn out leaving dark spots randomly about in the string, in some areas 2 L.E.D.'s next to each other went out.  These were outside in the yard in Florida during my evaluation of them, as to wether or not I would go with them or stay with replacable L.E.D. bulbs.

 

After my eval, I'm staying with replacable L.E.D. because I can easily change out a bulb and not have to use tape, crimps, cut old L.E.D. out and replace {which I had no replacements for sealed strings} in sealed strings.    So I'll spend a little extra time and use the nn-conductive automotive paste in all my sockets and on the L.E.D. leads that get reinserted.    I have many strands that I have been using now for going on 8+ years with no failures of corrosion, with the exception of a burned out L.E.D., replace it and it's good to go.

 

I wouldn't use sealed strands ever, not after my own personal experiences with them.  Oh and by the way, don't let folks tell you sealed strands don't flicker, that is actually quite false, on very slow fade ins and outs, the full wave strands I tested had a very pronounced flicker to them, much worse than my big box store bought HALF wave ones that didn't flicker under the same tests!

 

But these were MY results, others results and milage may differ.  

 

Just know I will stick with the big box store REPLACABLE L.E.D. strings, they've worked for me and my 5 CTB16PC LOR controllers for 3 years, and worked with a Mr. Christmas prior to LOR for 2-3 years and static for a few years prior to the Mr. Christmas unit!

Edited March 10, 2013 by Orville

[gmac]

Removeable for me.  But also use the automotive non-conductive paste used in automobile lamp sockets to prevent corrosion.   I got to try a couple of sealed strings, won't bother with them.  Had one fail completely after about a month, the other had several L.E.D. bulbs burn out leaving dark spots randomly about in the string, in some areas 2 L.E.D.'s next to each other went out.  These were outside in the yard in Florida during my evaluation of them, as to wether or not I would go with them or stay with replacable L.E.D. bulbs.

 

After my eval, I'm staying with replacable L.E.D. because I can easily change out a bulb and not have to use tape, crimps, cut old L.E.D. out and replace {which I had no replacements for sealed strings} in sealed strings.    So I'll spend a little extra time and use the nn-conductive automotive paste in all my sockets and on the L.E.D. leads that get reinserted.    I have many strands that I have been using now for going on 8+ years with no failures of corrosion, with the exception of a burned out L.E.D., replace it and it's good to go.

 

I wouldn't use sealed strands ever, not after my own personal experiences with them.  Oh and by the way, don't let folks tell you sealed strands don't flicker, that is actually quite false, on very slow fade ins and outs, the full wave strands I tested had a very pronounced flicker to them, much worse than my big box store bought HALF wave ones that didn't flicker under the same tests!

 

But these were MY results, others results and milage may differ.  

 

Just know I will stick with the big box store REPLACABLE L.E.D. strings, they've worked for me and my 5 CTB16PC LOR controllers for 3 years, and worked with a Mr. Christmas prior to LOR for 2-3 years and static for a few years prior to the Mr. Christmas unit!

Go figgure!!!!!   All I have to say is my experience has been just the oppposite of Orville's ...........For some strange reason we have had tons of rain the last 2 seasons here.......I lost 8 strands of replaceable types (No I don't take the time to pull out each socket and grease them)  But my sealed strings from CDI have been flawless, not one issue.

Guess this should confuse you more .Sorry

[Surfing4Dough]

...

Oh and by the way, don't let folks tell you sealed strands don't flicker, that is actually quite false, on very slow fade ins and outs, the full wave strands I tested had a very pronounced flicker to them, much worse than my big box store bought HALF wave ones that didn't flicker under the same tests!

 

We've been down this road before but will go there again.  This is a snubber issue and nothing to do with half-wave vs. full-wave.  And the probable difference between your strings has more to do with length of string and number of strings connected in series (though I am sure there may be some minor variance between brands).

[Orville]

We've been down this road before but will go there again.  This is a snubber issue and nothing to do with half-wave vs. full-wave.  And the probable difference between your strings has more to do with length of string and number of strings connected in series (though I am sure there may be some minor variance between brands).

Nope, sorry, all L.E.D. bulb counts were identical to each type {sealed and replacable} string and color tested.

[LOR Staff]

Many of the failures I have seen when it comes to sealed vs replaceable LEDs comes down to corrosion. 

 

"Well, wait a minute.", you might say.  "we never seemed to have this corrosion problem with regular mini lights.  Those have always been replaceable.  Why now?".

 

That is absolutely true.  Regular incan mini lights, which run on AC current, will not have a corrosion issue.  LEDs on the other hand run on DC current,  You may be plugging them into a 110v AC outlet, but those rectifiers on the string are changing that current to DC.  It also doesn't matter if they are 1/2 wave or full wave - it's still DC.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier)

 

So, what's so special about AC vs DC?  In DC current, the electrons are only moving in one direction.  Once you add rain water to the mix, which is going to have impurities, you've created a miniature electrolysis machine.  You are going to be ripping ions off the contact on one side of the socket, and depositing them on the other side.  But here's the rub: those ions have to be replaced.  And of course they'll be replaced with the oxygen atom in water.  Metal + oxygen = corrosion.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis).   Even with a just a little juice, you can rot out metal in no time (see also http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/salsa-eat-through-bars-of-jail-cell.htm)

 

So why not in AC?  In AC current, the direction of electron flow is constantly changing - that's what makes it ALTERNATING current. The corrosion IS happening in AC as well, but it's offsetting.  At the top of the cycle, ions are going to be moved from A to B.  At the bottom of the cycle ions are going to be moved from B to A.  Sure on 1/2 the cycle we are ripping ions off of one side, but on the other half, we put them back.  Net 0.

 

So, I would let where I lived determine the type of strings I purchased.  Each has it's strong points:

If I lived in a dry climate (say Arizona or California), or a very COLD climate (where while in use the temp would never go above freezing), I would use replaceable strings.   As stated, it is certainly easier to replace a bulb on a non-sealed set.  Corrosion would be minimized because of the lack of water.

 

If I loved in a wet climate, I would probably go with sealed strings.  The increased hassle of cutting and splicing is probably outweighed by the number of sets that would 'rot out'.

 

Of course, YMMV -> Replaceable strings may work perfectly fine in a wet environment if the bulbs seal well with the socket.  It is still possible to corrode a sealed set if a seal fails.

[SteveMaris]

Regular mini lights have copper leads. Led's that corrode have steel leads.

Newer Led's are getting zinc coatings on the leads to prevent corrosion. (Or so I've been told) 

[Surfing4Dough]

Regular mini lights have copper leads. Led's that corrode have steel leads.

Newer Led's are getting zinc coatings on the leads to prevent corrosion. (Or so I've been told) 

 

I thought about a year (or 2) ago it was becoming a new regulation that the LEDs had to have copper leads (or maybe zinc coated).  I remember the discussion came up around pre-sale time since they mentioned to "buy now since the prices are about to go up in 3 months to account for this new regulation" -- meaning that you were still able to order the older style at that point, and assuming that the price would rise in order to account for the added expense during manufacturing.

Nope, sorry, all L.E.D. bulb counts were identical to each type {sealed and replacable} string and color tested.

 

Regardless, still likely a snubber issue and not a "wave" issue.

[Orville]

I thought about a year (or 2) ago it was becoming a new regulation that the LEDs had to have copper leads (or maybe zinc coated).  I remember the discussion came up around pre-sale time since they mentioned to "buy now since the prices are about to go up in 3 months to account for this new regulation" -- meaning that you were still able to order the older style at that point, and assuming that the price would rise in order to account for the added expense during manufacturing.

 

Regardless, still likely a snubber issue and not a "wave" issue.

 

I also added a C7 bulb to the end of the sealed strings, still had the flicker issue, but reduced slightly and still very noticable on long drawn out fades on the sealed strings, the 1/2 waves, would flicker, but not as pronounced or as bad as the sealed ones I got.  If I added the C7 to the 1/2 wave strings, the flicker was almost, but not completely gone on these very slow drawn at fades.  Both worked flicker free on faster fades, the slow fades is where the issue of bad flickering came up more pronounced on the sealed ones, again, replacable ones, same L.E.D. bulb count and color performed somewhat better with a little less noticable flicker. {And the replacable strings I used came from BIG LOTS of all places.}

 

Like stated, this WAS and IS, MY experience and why I will stick with replacables from the Big Box stores that are a bit less costly than sealed ones, along with MY tests of sealed vs replacable, the replacables won out.   Again, MY experience, others may and will differ.    But as DevMike said, it all depends on your climate and if you want to spend a little time coating the sockets and L.E.D. leads in a L.E.D. string to help prevent that corrosion.

[Steven]

I bought 22 each of 5mm 100-light strings in each of red, green, and blue in 2008.  They are sealed.  I have used them for 5 years and have not had a single failure.

 

I prefer to use 5mm bulbs on bushes because it gives a "many points of light" look.  I use M6 bulbs on trees.  In that same year I used replaceable M6 strings on the trees.  They eventually started going bad, I believe mostly because the leads on the LEDs are steel or aluminum.

 

I did have some sealed white strings that failed, but they were easily repaired with splices.  It would have taken much longer to put some paste into every socket.

[Max-Paul]

Oh, no Alum LED leads. They are steel with possible nickle one atom plating. I have converted some display items that I wanted. But wanted them to be LED. So I have pulled  all of the ican bulbs and installed some LEDs I bought off of ebay. Long process, but all of the LEDs are coated with this No-Ox used on copper Alum joints. Have now gone thru 4 years of no failures.

 

I use M5 or M6 for window frames, wire frames and a light fence to keep people out of the yard (3'  candy canes for fence post). I use C6 for the mega tree and the icicles on the gutters. C9 for the roof outline.

[rainyoregonchristmas]

I guess I should give my input as I'm in the same location.  Type of LED, I use both sealed and non-sealed.  I've had cheap 5mm HD LEDs with Aluminum leads for three seasons, yes I've lost I believe 5 strings out of 125.  The only reason they're lost is I haven't sat down and located the bad bulb and replaced it yet.  I've got scads of replacements, just haven't had the time.  I also have some Fred Meyer brand sealed C6's that I've had for 9 years with now failures out of 12 strings.  Really the choice of lights choice comes down to cost.  Do want quality or quantity?  Someone said once that people will notice your lack of lights before they notice your lack of channels.  So really, you want a decent amount of lights, if you can afford expensive reliable ones great, if you can't find the bargains and buy away expecting some level of failures.

 

REALLY though, as you're just starting off you should be asking yourself the question of "Smart vs. Dumb" when it comes to lights.  By that I mean Pixels.  If you're just building your display and do not have any lights to speak of, Pixels might be the way to go.  One string of pixels in essence replaces 4 or more strings of regular LEDs.  You run less wiring, don't have the worries of AC voltage running through the lawn, and have endless possibilities for colors.  On top of that most all Pixels out there (as long as they're labeled as such) are waterproof.  Christmas displays are changing, and why not start off with the best technology right now, instead of debating on strings.  Also really it can be a cost saver if you buy right. 

 

 

-RainyOregonChristmas

[Max-Paul]

ROC

 

Ha, people balk at the cost of just a string of M5 LED over ican. Now with pixels you have a much higher cost. CCR is what 225 bucks for 15 feet. And the cost of 5 meters from Ray Wu is not something to sneeze at either. This will be my first year with 3 pixel strings. I went from about 180 (in use) channels of LOR to adding another 150 RGB (think 450 actual) channels. ROC are you doing pixels. If so you should know how much more work is involved sequencing RGB.

 

On the other hand, if I was starting off from scratch and it was January I would be considering the use of pixels in the display. But I am one of those that think that there is a place for pixels. But also the bulk of the display should still be bulbs. Some things have to remain bulbs for it to look like a Christmas display and not a dance club.

[rainyoregonchristmas]

ROC

 

Ha, people balk at the cost of just a string of M5 LED over ican. Now with pixels you have a much higher cost. CCR is what 225 bucks for 15 feet. And the cost of 5 meters from Ray Wu is not something to sneeze at either. This will be my first year with 3 pixel strings.

Ok, so lets break it down to what it would take to line 100 ft of ridge line and gutter:

 

Now since we are on the LOR site if you look at LOR CC bulbs your looking at 50 ft per controller so two controllers would be $580.00 You'd would also get 200 bulbs this way. Which makes it $5.80 per foot.  Also a benefit as it runs natively on the software. 

 

For me, I am using 90 ft of C9 smart pixels from a different company this year (168 pixels) cost for the combo pack was $370 or $4.11 per foot.  I am lining my gutters and peaks of my roof with them. 

 

If I were to do the same with string LED's you're looking at:

 

$250 for a controller, pick an average length 16 ft, and an average LED pro cost $10.00.  It will take 6 strings to do 96 ft ($60.00) times 4 colors Red, Green, Blue, White ($240) plus power cords 4 for each color for maximum control that's 16 cords @ 5.00 ($80.00) totaling $570 or $5.93 per foot. That's as close as I can get to the color and control of power of pixels.  Yes, it seems to be more work, but if you pick right, some companies offer smart pixels that can act dumb that saves on channels and ease of programming for the first year. Then the next year when you have experience under your belt, flip a switch and they all become smart again.

 

This is all just the way I think when I break it down.  It came to me last year as an epiphany when I was looking closely at costs of two 8 channel fire sticks.  When you break it down, pixels are cheaper, harder to program, but yes, cheaper.

 

-RainyOregonChristmas

Edited March 25, 2013 by rainyoregonchristmas

[Max-Paul]

ROC

Very good write up. Though I think I could keep the cost down on the controller with a PC controller. Was at first going to cry foul cause of the 16 extension cords. Then I realized what you where up to.

 

Agreed, someone that can learn fast and with a wee bit of guidance could get those smart strips that can be ran as dumb strips. Then the following year go and redo their seq so that now they take advantage of the smart strips. Might have to look into those C9 lens and smart strings.

 

Good sequencing ROC