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Triac issues (lots of them)


Spectacular Lighting

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Out town right now on business. It just hit me though, maybe I need to order a handful of these from Digikey or some place. Anyone have a part number on these? I would guess they would be the same on Gen1 and Gen2?

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I had to send back a Gen 3 controller last year because of a blown triac. Same symptoms as most of you here; one channel stuck on at about %50 all the time, even when no show running. I sent it back under warranty last January after take down and put it back in operation this year. Three weeks into the season, the same channel stuck on again. I have an excess of spare channels so I am just going to move some things around and mark that channel as permanently out of service. Very frustrating. I am glad that the channel was on an out of the way effect. I am tired of sending back the same controller.

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Jim, was it the same prop on that channel both times? If so, next time put that prop on another channel and see if it blows that channel.. Worth a shot..

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Out town right now on business. It just hit me though, maybe I need to order a handful of these from Digikey or some place. Anyone have a part number on these? I would guess they would be the same on Gen1 and Gen2?

These are the links the help desk referred me to to repair the triacs in my Gen2 CTB16PC controllers:

Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/BTA16-600BWRG/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiRl999Fj7%2f30CUDUZ%252bCqUN43mVxQfrz1s8Oc0i4sX4CQ%3d%3d

Digikey: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BTA16-600BWRG/497-3122-5-ND/654430

Allied Electronics: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70013674#tab=specs

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These are the links the help desk referred me to to repair the triacs in my Gen2 CTB16PC controllers:

Mouser: http://www.mouser.co...1s8Oc0i4sX4CQ==

Digikey: http://www.digikey.c...122-5-ND/654430

Allied Electronics: http://www.alliedele...13674#tab=specs

Can anyone confirm if this will work on Gen 1 as well???

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These are fairly genaric. 16amp, 600v insulated case triacs. I know nothing about the G1 controllers but I would bet they will work fine. The have no internal snubber.

Edited by plasmadrive
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At least the digikey link was the BTA16-600BW which is the snubberless version, implying that it can handle higher dv/dt without requiring an external snubber. This is the correct one for both V1 & V2 of the CTB16PC. My understanding is that the gen3 went to the BTA25-600BW, and that this can actually be used in the V1 or V2 if desired, but does not change any of the device ratings.

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Jim, was it the same prop on that channel both times? If so, next time put that prop on another channel and see if it blows that channel.. Worth a shot..

Thanks for the reply I have 28 plexiglass Luminarias that line my dirveway. They are on individual channels. They only have 3 LED C9's and one C9 incandescent in each one. The amp load is practically nothing. It would have been sure happenstance if the same Luminaria ended up on the same channel as last year. I am sure it has to be the triac.

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Jim,

That is very strange.. certainly the normal current useage is not the issue. The fact that the same channel went is really weird given the circumstances.

I wonder what the heck is happening to all the triacs... If LOR repaired that unit I am guessing they didn't use triacs from the same batch as the manufactiring process since those are not done in the US as I understand it. (unless the assembly house sent them to LOR). The output power circuit is standard stuff and not unlike hundres of other manufacturers of various items...

Does anyone know if LOR has done anything to look into this? Or is this a pretty minor issue percentage wise overall? If they have looked into it, did they find anything????

It really doesn't matter that muich to me in the scheme of things either except it is a puzzle wanting to be solved.. B)

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It seems to me that one of the DIY types was investigating a range of ST semiconductor production lots for suspected high failure rates. I will say that with controllers going back to 2007, all my triac failures are 2010 and newer. I believe that the shortages of controllers and late shipping in 2011 was documented by LOR to be in part directly related to high failure rates in the triacs. My understanding is that they have taken action to get a better supply. So hopefully we won't see the same issues, or at least not the same rates in the 2012 and newer controllers.

Got so wrapped up in trying to figure this out I almost forgot aboutt this post.. Do you know if this turned out to actually be the issue or was that speculation? If so I will just sigh and move on... I so love a puzzle.. :mellow:

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Jim,

That is very strange.. certainly the normal current useage is not the issue.   The fact that the same channel went is really weird given the circumstances.

I wonder what the heck is happening to all the triacs...  If LOR repaired that unit I am guessing they didn't use triacs from the same batch as the manufactiring process since those are not done in the US as I understand it. (unless the assembly house sent them to LOR).  The output power circuit is standard stuff and not unlike hundres of other manufacturers of various items...  

Does anyone know if LOR has done anything to look into this?  Or is this a pretty minor issue percentage wise overall?  If they have looked into it, did they find anything????

It really doesn't matter that muich to me in the scheme of things either except it is a puzzle wanting to be solved.. B)

 

Yes, load is def not an issue.  I don't think I am pulling more than 2 amps on the entire controller.  I was really surprised by the failure since I have 7 older PC controllers that have been flawless.  This particular controller was ordered during that period when LOR had so much trouble with delivery, as I recall based on a known triac issue.   LIke I said in my first post, it is more trouble to dismantle the controller and pull the dongles than to just remove the channel completely from my configuration.

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Well............ the Help Desk is NO help with this issue. Told them I did a reset, and what did they tell me to , "lets do a controller reset this should fix your problem" Ticket Closed.

Is the help desk not authorized to ...nevermind.

 

I'm a few days late here, but I wanted to comment on this.

 

Whenever we get a 'stuck channel' request, we ask the user to do some troubleshooting.  Depending on what the customer told us, we have 1 of 2 paths to follow:  One is the 'Reset' path, the other is a little more in-depth taking into account the weirdness that some LEDs can have with controllers.  It too has a 'reset' section.

 

Many times, what a customer thinks 'resets' a controller is not what actually does the reset.  For example. customers think that simply unplugging a controller will 'reset' it.  That's why (typically) a stuck channel request always starts with a request to 'reset' the unit first.  You would be surprised how many times this works - and it saves you a bunch of $ by not sending back perfectly working units.

 

The 'Closed' thing throws a lot of people.  When you have a bunch of tickets bouncing around  it makes it very difficult for us to keep them sorted.  That's why whenever we reply to a ticket, we close it.  In our signatures you'll see something that says something along the lines of 'This ticket is not considered closed but has been marked closed to clear our desk.".  As soon as you reply to it, it re-opens and appears on the correct persons queue.  

 

I looked at about 10 days worth of tickets starting backwards from 1/19, and couldn't find any that stood out and appeared to be yours.  What was your ticket number so I can have a look?

 

Edit:  Never Mind, I found it.  

 

On Fri 1/18 @ 12:13A you opened the ticket and let us know you were using incans - which means you don't need the 'long form instructions'.  You did say that with the forum's help you did the reset.  However, because it wasn't someone from the company that told you how to do it, we sent the 'short form' reset instructions to ensure you did the reset correctly.  

 

On Fri 1/18 @ 8 AM we sent those reset instructions.  

 

On Sat 1/19 @ 2:30P You replied back that you did the reset again and still had a problem.

 

On Sun 1/20 @ 8 AM, we replied back that we send those instructions to everyone to make sure the reset is done correctly, and we gave you the repair options, including an RMA if you wanted to send it back.

 

on Tues 1/22 @ 11:30 PM you asked that we send you the parts to fix the unit yourself.

 

on Wed 1/23 @ noon, we sent the parts.

 

To me, that looks like everything worked exactly how it should have.  

 

Just as a follow up, have you received the parts yet and if so, did they fix the issue?

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Mike, was there a manufacturing issue with triac?   is that real or a myth?

 

I'm not on the hardware side, so I don't know the answer to that question.  

 

Since this was my first real 'season' working the help desk, I don't have any thing to compare to either.  That means I can't even say if the number of requests we've had is out of the norm.  

 

I also haven't heard anything from Dan, Engineering, or repairs about bad triacs.  I'm sure if there was a pattern to it, someone would be able to pick up on it.  

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Mike,

Any chance you can get us an answer to that or perhaps have someone from hardware post it here?  It would be good to know..

 

Craig

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Got you covered, Dan --> Cleaned up:

-----------------------

There was a question "was there a manufacturing issue with triacs? is that real or a myth?"... In 2011 we did have a bad batch of triacs. We learned a lot from that experience and have implemented procedures to test batches. We built a 240 amp testing rig that can push triacs through an extreamly harsh test and is used to verify batches of triacs. </span>

We are constantly looking to make the controllers more robust. We use multiple manufactures with duplication so in the event there is an issue with one of the manufactures we have backup. Most of the cards we sell are made in the USA. Most of the parts for LOR products are purchased directly by LOR and we always use highly recognized distributors and in some cases we purchase directly from the component manufacture. All of our manufactures are certified and we do not see any significant difference in quality from the cards delivered from these manufactures. 

Triac failure has been the number one issue with LOR controllers since day one. About half the time we can determine that the failure was caused by an external problem and the remainder of the issues we are not sure. For example we had one fellow who was complaining that triacs were failing all over his display, no special lights, no heavy loads, etc... The problem was determined to be little worms that were crawling up into the warm controllers and shorting out the circuits. 

Worms and insects, little lizards are commonly found fried in controllers that are sent back for repair. But with all that said, there are cases were we simply are not sure why the triacs failed. As far as bad batches of triacs, as mentioned earlier, that did happen one time and we have testing procedures in place now to test the batches, look for bad quality, counterfeit parts, etc. 

When we designed the Gen3 cards, one of the criteria was to increase robustness, we looked at the most common failures and attempted to reduce the chance of failure at those points. One point was the triacs. We moved from a 16amp rated triac to a much more expensive 25 amp rated triac. The result is that we have seen a reduction in triac failures with G3 controllers. The second most common failure was RJ45 connectors that were pulled loose. By reversing the mounting orientation of these connectors on the Gen3 controllers there has been a reduction in those failures as well. 

We are constantly looking to make the controllers more robust. We use multiple manufactures with duplication in who manufactures individual components so in the event one manufacture has an issue we have backup. Most of the cards we sell are made in the USA. Most of the parts for LOR products are purchased directly by LOR and we always use highly recognized distributors and in some cases we purchase directly with the component manufacture. All of our manufactures are certified and we do not see any significant difference in quality from these manufactures.

Regardless of where a component is manufactured, when it is delivered to LOR it is tested / packaged / re-tested... For example for a CTPC16P-ReadyToGO, We get the CTB16PC card from one of the two manufactures that build them for us. We program and test the card to ensure all 16 channels are operating. We then install the card into the plastic enclosure and connect all the wires. Then the controller is plugged into a test fixture where it can be load tested. We verify all labeled outputs (1 - 16) are on the correct channel. Each channel is load tested and full banks of 8 are load tested. We test the unit with a high pot tester to look for shorts between high/low voltage and ground. 

Back to triac failure, we do not know of any particular issue that causes triacs to fail.with common incandescent and led Christmas lighting. We do know that there is a certain load that appear to damage triacs. These lighting products contain a type of switching power supply and are most commonly used in 240 volt countries where line voltage is not used on led and most incandescent Christmas lights. Note: (we became aware of this this issue this season and are not sure of the cause yet or if it is the triacs being damaged)

------------ When a triac is damaged -------

We will of course fix controllers under warranty at no charge including shipping,. We will repair controllers that are no longer under warranty for free with the user covering the shipping charges. Regardless of the age of a controller, we will send triacs at no charge to a domestic user who needs them.

Edited by LORAdmin
Cleaned up.
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Wow Dan,  That was quite a read with all that HTML junk.  :P

 

I think that answers all my questions... So great to have a company be up front about things that just happen.. My hat is off to LOR for being upfront and concise...

 

I judge a company not by whether they have a problem or issue, but rather by how they handle that problem or issue..  LOR Rocks!!

 

The bad thing is now I have no puzzle to solve.. sniff sniff.. :huh:

 

Craig 

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Dan,

 

Thank you for providing the insight into the continuous improvement that goes into your product design, as well as the efforts you take in production assurance.  It just reinforces what many of us have always said about this being the company for those looking for a solid product that doesn't require DIY electronics skills to use. 

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I'm a few days late here, but I wanted to comment on this.

 

Whenever we get a 'stuck channel' request, we ask the user to do some troubleshooting.  Depending on what the customer told us, we have 1 of 2 paths to follow:  One is the 'Reset' path, the other is a little more in-depth taking into account the weirdness that some LEDs can have with controllers.  It too has a 'reset' section.

 

Many times, what a customer thinks 'resets' a controller is not what actually does the reset.  For example. customers think that simply unplugging a controller will 'reset' it.  That's why (typically) a stuck channel request always starts with a request to 'reset' the unit first.  You would be surprised how many times this works - and it saves you a bunch of $ by not sending back perfectly working units.

 

The 'Closed' thing throws a lot of people.  When you have a bunch of tickets bouncing around  it makes it very difficult for us to keep them sorted.  That's why whenever we reply to a ticket, we close it.  In our signatures you'll see something that says something along the lines of 'This ticket is not considered closed but has been marked closed to clear our desk.".  As soon as you reply to it, it re-opens and appears on the correct persons queue.  

 

I looked at about 10 days worth of tickets starting backwards from 1/19, and couldn't find any that stood out and appeared to be yours.  What was your ticket number so I can have a look?

 

Edit:  Never Mind, I found it.  

 

On Fri 1/18 @ 12:13A you opened the ticket and let us know you were using incans - which means you don't need the 'long form instructions'.  You did say that with the forum's help you did the reset.  However, because it wasn't someone from the company that told you how to do it, we sent the 'short form' reset instructions to ensure you did the reset correctly.  

 

On Fri 1/18 @ 8 AM we sent those reset instructions.  

 

On Sat 1/19 @ 2:30P You replied back that you did the reset again and still had a problem.

 

On Sun 1/20 @ 8 AM, we replied back that we send those instructions to everyone to make sure the reset is done correctly, and we gave you the repair options, including an RMA if you wanted to send it back.

 

on Tues 1/22 @ 11:30 PM you asked that we send you the parts to fix the unit yourself.

 

on Wed 1/23 @ noon, we sent the parts.

 

To me, that looks like everything worked exactly how it should have.  

 

Just as a follow up, have you received the parts yet and if so, did they fix the issue?

Let me put it this way. If the responder to my ticket had added what was in the message on 1/20 to the message I received on 1/18, I would not have become so frustrated.

 

NO , I haven't received any parts. Mail must be a bit slow this week. :(

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