3.9.0 and a laptop - not playing nice

[De Trommelslager]

I updated my laptop from 3.8 to 3.9 after the memory leak issue popped up, and a lot of pondering about an update during show season. Windows 7. Long story, but show computer crashed before light up, so the laptop was pressed into service. Not the best scenario, but it has worked okay until the update. The original show computer is running fine after some TLC, so I may put into service tomorrow. It still has 3.8.0 on it and I will leave it be until after the season.

What is happening is during any show, whether musical or not the computer seems to have an issue with the power supply. During shows, the computer cycles from battery to normal power about every fifteen seconds or so for an equivalent duration of time. After running the show for a couple of hours, the battery is low enough that it goes into power saving mode and everything halts. The machine does fine all other times when a show isn't running.

Out of curiosity, has anyone else running 3.9.0 on a laptop experienced this phenomenon? After a search, I found nothing. This is my first wrinkle this season, so I guess I have been lucky thus far.

[LOR Staff]

We don't mess with any power management stuff. Laptops are notorious for having 'power' problems like that. When I start seeing power weirdness, I check 3 things:

Battery contacts - remove the battery, check, re-insert and make sure it is completely locked in place

Power Brick - ensure the line cord (the one to the wall) is fully inserted into the brick

Power Connector Jack - The one you plug the power brick into on the computer. If it's that, you'll have to take ti to a repair place and have them put a new jack on the motherboard.

[Caleb Linburg]

It sounds as if it is the show causing this issue because he says that it works when the show is not running. Otherwise it sounds like a hardware issue.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Caleb Linburg

[iflights]

I'm running a laptop this year and have had no issues. I have a spare power brick & battery standing by just in case. I've learned that whatever the situation, Murphy doesn't like me...ever.

You might swap in a 2nd brick to start what DevMike is suggesting...eliminate possibilities.

I did disable all power management at the OS level, except for the screen, which I allow to go dark in 15 minutes.

[Caleb Linburg]

I just did some searching online and one site said that it is possible the laptop is demanding more power than the power supply can handle and that will make it switch to the battery power. Is your power supply original to the laptop?

[De Trommelslager]

UPDATE:

The problem has been found. Hopefully! I am posting this in case anyone comes across the same issue or something similar in the future.

It appears that the FM transmitter was somehow inducing noise in the computer and causing the turbo hydrodynamic encabulator to disconnect from the master mojo modulating modulator valve, which in turn doesn't allow the linear illuminating incubator to communicate with the flux capacitor... blah, blah, blah. Whatever; RF interference on the audio cable seems to tick off the computer. Someone smarter than I on the RF side of things may be able to shed some light.

For some background info, I do not transmit 24 hours a day. The transmitter comes on about an hour prior to the show with Zara playing music and announcements. Zara then plays music until about an hour after our last show, then the transmitter is powered down. This has been done at the request of the boss; she somehow feels like we are saving on our utility costs by powering down the transmitter. Some battles aren't worth fighting, and she gets a point for the concession.

Troubleshooting steps: I ran show on demand with the exact same show that has been exhibiting the problem this morning without issue. So, I scheduled a show with the pre show animation, the show itself and the post show animation to allow it to run like a normal night. Not a glitch. Wiggled plugs, stood on my head, and still no problem.

After some head scratching, the only thing that was different during the tests and nightly shows is the FM transmitter being off for the tests. So, it was powered up and immediately the power started its cycling back and forth. Now we are getting somewhere... For the record, the transmitter is about six feet from the computer.

Power for the computer and transmitter were coming from the same power strip. So I moved the power from the power strip into another outlet on a different circuit. And the issue continued. Next step was to unplug the audio cable from the computer. And, bang. The problem disappeared. Plugged back in and the issue returns.

Swapped out the audio cable and am still getting some power cycling, but not at the same frequency or duration that I was. For grins, a ferrite choke was put on the audio cable within a couple of inches of the computer, and all seems to be happy. With the choke on the audio cable, a show completed without a single instance of the power cycling.

I intend on running the show tonight and tomorrow night from the laptop to see if the issue returns. I'll post back here for a follow up.

In the spirit of answering the questions and giving follow up information to those that have been helpful, below are responses.

We don't mess with any power management stuff. Laptops are notorious for having 'power' problems like that. When I start seeing power weirdness, I check 3 things:

Battery contacts - remove the battery, check, re-insert and make sure it is completely locked in place

Power Brick - ensure the line cord (the one to the wall) is fully inserted into the brick

Power Connector Jack - The one you plug the power brick into on the computer. If it's that, you'll have to take ti to a repair place and have them put a new jack on the motherboard.

Mike, that was my first thought and items that were scrutinized. All seems well from the outlet to the machine. Even wiggling the plug in the socket doesn't have any effect on the cycles from power to battery.

I'm running a laptop this year and have had no issues. I have a spare power brick & battery standing by just in case. I've learned that whatever the situation, Murphy doesn't like me...ever.

You might swap in a 2nd brick to start what DevMike is suggesting...eliminate possibilities.

I did disable all power management at the OS level, except for the screen, which I allow to go dark in 15 minutes.

Mr. Murphy lives here, too! I don't have a second brick readily available, but can give that a go in another day ot two to rule it out. Power settings are never sleep on power with the display shutting down after 1hr, on battery the computer sleeps after 3hrs and the display shutting down after 15min.

It sounds as if it is the show causing this issue because he says that it works when the show is not running. Otherwise it sounds like a hardware issue.

The phenomenon is only happening during a show. All other times it is running fine. Hmmm... The transmitter is on during a show!

I just did some searching online and one site said that it is possible the laptop is demanding more power than the power supply can handle and that will make it switch to the battery power. Is your power supply original to the laptop?

It is the original power supply. It is around a year old and hasn't been extensively used (although that doesn't mean it isn't trying to go belly up).

That is an interesting find on power demand. Which brings up a question for DevMike, does 3.9.0 demand more than previous versions? My best guess would be very little to none and after narrowing down the issue is likely not pertinent in this case.

Thanks to all for the advice and insight!!

[Big Mur]

Thank you for posting the solution! I have not experienced this, but I can't believe how many little things pop up and how helpful the forum answers have been.

[iflights]

I may have spoke too soon. Just a fluke, but I was watching my laptop during the show run last evening and saw the exact thing with the battery charging light flashing on and off every 10 seconds or so. Checking the battery, it said it had only 97% capacity, which was pretty interesting for a laptop which is supposed to be running 100% off a factory stock power supply.

This morning, show over of course, and battery is charged at 100%.

Other than that, the show has been running fine.

I am running 4 USB devices...

LOR USB Dongle

Enttec USB pro dongle

USB to RS232 adapter for RDS into the EDM

Behringer USB Audio interface providing line input to the EDM

I'm also running E1.31 on 650 pixels/1950 channels.

I'm going to get a powered USB hub today and see if that helps to isolate my issue.

[De Trommelslager]

UPDATE:

In watching my computer during the show last night, the problem still exists for me. Although it isn't as bad. An anomoly I noticed was when it would switch from power to battery, the charge level would be different each time it cycled. On battery it would show 88% remaining, then twenty or thirty seconds later it would go the battery and say 69% remaining, twenty or thirty seconds later 98% remaining, and so on. Strange!! I have never claimed to the be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that the battery isn't draining and charging at those kind of rates.

My bag of tricks has one last idea, and that is to run the audio through a mixer and see if that cures the issue.

If a developer needs this:

Dell Laptop

• Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit with SP1
  
• Intel i7 1.6GHz
  
• 6GB Ram (used during shows is approx 42%)
  
• 500GB HD ~60% Free
  
• ATI High Def Audio
  
• Power saving settings off on utility power; sleep at 10% on battery
  

LOR USB Dongle

Fail Safe CZH-05B

• 6' RCA cable from XMTR to 1/8"-RCA adaptor plugged into headphone jack
  
• Broadcasts 4.5 hours each day during shows & animations
  

Software (running)

• LOR 3.9.0 Advanced
  
• Zara Radio 1.6.2.0
  
• Team Viewer 8.0.16642
  

EDIT: LOR software team, this did begin with the upgrade from 3.8.0 to 3.9.0 with the same hardware config as above. Prior to upgrading there weren't any issues with the power cycling. Memory would load up after three or fours nights; reboot would cure. Power cycling may or may not be related to the 3.9 release and I am by no means declaring the update the culprit, but is certainly coincidental that it began right after the update with no changes to hardware.

Edited December 21, 2012 by De Trommelslager

[De Trommelslager]

Jeff, thanks for the info. I can't imagine them not looking into this but also realize it may not be the biggest fish in the pan. Guess we'll have to wait and see. In the meantime I'll swap over to the intended show machine running 3.8 and will just reboot as nessecary until the season is over.

LOR team, I am leaving the laptop as is for now. When/if this bug gains your attention, I am willing to help anyway I can.

[-klb-]

I wonder if some of the battery management apps are running on network ports against the loopback, and catching the multicast traffic.

[iflights]

Just want to point out that my show computer configuration is using LOR 3.7.2 and I too am seeing the laptop battery charging concern. I don't have a previous version point of reference here as this is my 1st year in production.

In case it helps, here is my show laptop information.

Dell E6410 i5 processor

4 GB memory

Windows 7 Professional - 32 Bit, SP1

128 GB SSD

[LOR Staff]

We have absolutely NOTHING to do with power management. That is 100% a function of Windows and your computer.

I also don't buy into the 'The laptop needs more power so it uses the battery plus the adapter'. There is nothing in our code that 'supercharges' your computer into needing more power than the power supply can provide. In fact, I regularly run all my laptops WITHOUT the battery in them (since batteries have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles, and keeping them fully charged shortens their lifespan considerably).

What I have seen are 'battery management' programs which try to prolong the life of a battery by starting charge/discharge cycles on their own (Thinkpads were good for this). I've also seen batteries that as they go bad do STRANGE things to the computer and operating system.... Dell, and other mfgs, are famous for cramming software onto machines to try to make them run 'better'.

Pull the battery and see what happens.

[-klb-]

Dell is so notorious about battery issues that the first test their support staff has you do for hardware issues is see if it is reproducible with the battery out.

[De Trommelslager]

Well, I ran a test show with the battery out and all went well. So I let the first show run and it was fine. I looked out right before the second show to see the largest crowd we have had this season, and about 15 minutes in the show froze. Went to look at the computer and it had locked up. After a hard power down and reboot, it went back to operating but during that time the folks that had assembled to watch gave up and left.

Battery out isn't the answer. There was a Windows error code that stated something like C++ error/WIndows Explorer unresponsive. I didn't take time to read it since I wanted to get the show rolling agan as fast as possible. I don't know if the error would have been power problems, memory problems or what. To date I have never experienced this power cycling issue running a wide variety of programs, some being very resource intensive.

I am at a loss; the update is when power cycling started for me; Mike says the LOR doesn't manage power and isn't the cause. I don't doubt him and am not trying to say he (or anyone else) is wrong. Simply this has hit a dead end for me. The PC will finsih the season. I am done with the power cycling fiasco and the lack of reliability. Enough of my time has gone into chasing this around and there are many other things I need to be doing anyway. As of right now I can't recommend running LOR on a laptop for show purposes based on my woes and those of the others above. For whatever reason it isn't proving to be a reliable combination.

Hopefully someone will be able to find a solution to the power cycling issue at some point.

[LOR Staff]

It just seems funny the laptop works fine for everything else it's used for, but crashes miserably running LOR. Yet I'm supposed to choke down the claim that it's not LOR creating the issue?

Just because you see symptom X when using thing Y, means thing Y is the cause iff Z is not also in use.

[De Trommelslager]

Smooth show on the PC tonight. Nice change from the past several day's worth of power issues!!

It is running 3.8.0 and will for the remainder. Since there appears to be other issues with the newest release I am going to hold tight until after show season ends.

[LOR Staff]

OK, now that we are back on track....

I would think about reformatting and reinstalling Windows on your laptop.

Also, keep an eye now on the PC running the show. 3.8 has a known bug in it that could eventually kill the show player. You may want to reboot it daily, OR move to 3.9 in which the bug is fixed.

[De Trommelslager]

Thanks Mike. I will watch the laptop closely and see if the issue continues. If it does, it will get reformatted in the form of a new machine. In my line work, computer issues like this can cost me a lot more in losses than the machine is worth. It will find a new life as a game computer for my son if there is anything strange happening.

As far as the show PC, the bug was present before on the laptop and would require the reboot periodically, hence the upgrade on the laptop and the adventure afterwards. Part of my daily routine will be rebooting the PC to keep it stable. Once show season is behind me I will update it as well and will do my testing to make sure all is tip top. No offense, but I know of the 3.8 bug and the work around; this late in the game and without a stable backup machine, the potential of another set of issues to find a solution for is something I have neither the time or patience for. I'll run 3.8 for the remainder.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[LightORamaDan]

I have just become aware of this issue. We will be giving it a high priority. If we cannot reproduce it on one of our machines we will certainly take up people's offers to help out.

Dan