Tracking down a short

[Torqumada286]

I came up with some PVC feet for my wire mini-trees. I have some 2 inch pipe left over from building my arch. I have cut some pieces to about 2 inches in length and place my trees on three of them and zip tie them in place. We'll see how that works.

Torqumada

[Klayfish]

Can you take a picture of that? I'm still not clear on how I'd secure the tomato cage to the PVC to that it's stable.

[Torqumada286]

I can, but it will be tomorrow before that happens.

Torqumada

[viennaxmas]

I used 11/2 inch PVC pipe in the center and secured the cages on the top using a hose clamp... I have to get them high enough to be seen over a 6 ft privacy fence and that worked well...

The ground stakes are metal fence posts...

[Torqumada286]

A picture of my PVC feet.

Torqumada

[Max-Paul]

A picture of my PVC feet.

Torqumada

Whats going to keep it from blowing over? BTW you got a lamp missing.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Max-Paul

[Torqumada286]

Spikes in the other 2 feet. Yeah, I found it and replaced it after I took the shot.

Torqumada

Edited December 2, 2012 by Torqumada286

[TJ Hvasta]

I have them anchored into the ground using dog fence flags that I bent into a "V".

If they are metal, this IS your short to ground. Remove them,

You can try stapling the frames to a length of 5-quarter (or dog-ear wooden fencing) board. It keeps them isolated from the Earth (so no current drain) and secured onto the planking. Trust me on this, you do NOT want your minitrees metal-anchored to the Earth, unless you want a dark display.

[Torqumada286]

Here is a bit more for all to chew on. Wire on a wet yard will capacitivly (SP?) conduct current. A single instance will not be enough. But with all of the wires we lay across the ground, it all adds up. So, on top of putting wire frames of any kind up off of the ground cause of capacitive coupling to the metal frame and then to ground. Or getting stakes and tying the wires to the stakes so that the majority of the wire is up and off of the ground.

Any rule of thumb on how much wire should be up off the ground?

Torqumada

[Max-Paul]

YMMV,

I am not suggesting that you do this right off, but if all fails then this is a possible solution or part of a solution.

[Klayfish]

If they are metal, this IS your short to ground. Remove them,

You can try stapling the frames to a length of 5-quarter (or dog-ear wooden fencing) board. It keeps them isolated from the Earth (so no current drain) and secured onto the planking. Trust me on this, you do NOT want your minitrees metal-anchored to the Earth, unless you want a dark display.

Yes, my anchors are metal, so that's obviously my issue. If I staple them to fencing board, I'd need to make sure the whole thing doesn't blow over. Not that we get 60mph winds all day, but I'm on top of a small hill with very few houses or trees to protect us. So it can get pretty breezy when a storm front comes through. May try the PVC in the ground idea.

What about using those lawn stakes, usually used for C7 or C9 bulbs? Something like these? http://www.christmaslightsetc.com/p/7.5-inch-All-In-One-Light-Stake-25-Pack--13483.htm?gclid=CMO465yWhrQCFQVgMgodgh0A9g Put a number of them in the ground in a circle pattern and rest/zip tie the cage to the clips??

[Dave Batzdorf]

Instead of going outside and pulling each plug, you do dthe same using the hardware utility in the comfort of your easy chair!

[Max-Paul]

I have some of those C7 or C9 yard stakes. Use them to hold some strobes off of the ground. In my opinion you would need about a dozen to MAYBE do the job. Seem kind of weak to me. Where as a 3/4 or 1" PVC pipe about 1' long and with a hole drilled at the one end and kind of slant cut at the other end. Then 3 or 4 of them driven about 6 -8" into the ground would be more sturdy. Although Torq's idea of making a ring about 3 or 4" long out of say 2 or 3" pipe. The zip tying to one side and a metal anchor on the other side (and the two shall not meet) is a good idea that does the same thing. Keeps the metal of the tree off of the ground.

[Klayfish]

Ugh...raining again today and I still have the short somewhere. I have my mini trees off the ground. They're sitting on 1.5" PVC hammered into the ground with plastic zip ties securing them in. Very much like the picture above. But they're still tripping the GFCI. I know it's them, because there are 8 of them and they're channels 1-8. If I unplug that cord and only run channels 9-16, I'm fine. I've tried plugging them back in one at a time. Only one of them seems to work without tripping the GFCI. At this point, should I assume it's the extension cords getting water in them? Most of them are a combination of shorter cords, perhaps water is getting into the connection? Or is it possible water is getting into the female end of the first strand of lights on the trees? That first strand is anchored on the top of the mini-tree, with the female end in the open. Suggestions?? We have a holiday open house tomorrow and I really want to get this working right.

[james campbell]

I had problems with my minis until tonight,last season when it rained no go on the show.even this year we elevated the minis off the ground to no avail. I tried one last thing,my garage had 20 amp gfcis that never tripped with my static display,and the new ones I had run last seasom were 15 amp,on the 20 amp gfcis it's running even as it's raining now.

[Max-Paul]

Klayfish,

could you give either a details discription of channel leads leaving the controller all of the way to the mini tree. Where are the plugs and sockets, are the up in the air or laying on the ground? Or as they say, a photo is worth 1000 words.

[Klayfish]

Hopefully this link works. I just tried taking some pictures.

http://s1197.beta.photobucket.com/user/Klayfish/library/Christmas%202012

The cords are all laying on the ground. The outlet I'm using is on my front porch. I have a 100' extension cord running from there towards the box. It's plugged into a 3 way splitter extension cord. I use two of those for the power cords coming out of the control box (the third outlet on the splitter cord is unused). The control box is laying under the ramp with Santa/Rudolph on it. There are extension cords running from each mini tree to the box. Some of the cords are SPT1 cords I made myself, others are store bought cords. They occupy channels 1-8. Channels 9-16 are used by the light trees that you see attached to the wooden stakes. They also use a mix of extension cords (SPT1 and store bought).

I have confirmed that if I unplug the mini tree power supply (channels 1-8), I can run channels 9-16 in the rain. So the issue is definitely in the mini trees. Hopefully the picture shows it well, but I've got them all off the ground using PVC pipe.

[Max-Paul]

Yep, thousands of words. Ok just going to drop back for a minute. As you know, a GFI works like this. It senses the amount of current flowing out on the hot lead. Now if all is as it should be and to keep the GFI happy and Balanced. The GFI also sense the amount of current flowing back on the neutral lead. Although nothing is 100% perfect and we humans (maybe animals too) can handle a little zap. So the engineers allow a wee bit of imbalance of a few mili Amps, say about 40 or so.

Now what is happening in your case is several things. First wires on the ground will capacitivily couple and allow an apparent current flow (not real like two wire touching). And you have the same happen with the wires wrapped around the wire cages and siting on the ground. And then you have actual current leak via water in the plugs and sockets on the ground. All of these little leaks add up and then the amount of current leaks exceed the rating of the GFI and then it trips.

How to prevent tripping GFI: Get the wire cages off of the ground, which you have done. Get the plugs and sockets up off of the ground so that water has a longer path or the path to ground is broken (BTW are those dongles from LOR with ground pin? Get rid of them. They promote your problem at the socket.) Do, this for all items that are on that outlet, not just the mini trees. Remember they all contribute to the leakage for that GFI. Foot Note: A reminder for those who know what a capacitor is and something to help the newbies understand what it is. For a better Def, google it. A Cap as we like to call them is two surfaces with a charge (voltage) potential. In our case the hot wire is one surface and earth ground is another. And if you take a volt meter lead and jam it into the ground and the other lead on the hot wire. You will see different voltages depending on the moisture content of the dirt you have your one probe in. As the ground become wetter from rain the voltage reading will go up. As the voltage goes up the leaking current goes up for both sockets / plugs and the capacitivily couple type. Thus when it rains your GFI is more likely to trip and in some cases just dew or foggy weather will do it too.

So, get your junk ( ) up off of the ground.

PS. Bet you can unplug other controllers that you have on the GFI and their supply wires. And your 8 mini trees will work.

Sorry, didnt mean this to become like one of the other members tome

Edited December 8, 2012 by Max-Paul

[Max-Paul]

BTW that is animal cruelty, making Rudolph do all the pulling around of that fat old fart all by himself.

[Klayfish]

Awesome, thanks for the suggestions!! I'm still learning a lot about the electrical side of this stuff, as I don't have a ton of experience with it. My first purchase when I started this was a Kill O Watt, and I've used it a ton. I actually have the controller on a circuit almost by itself. The only other thing plugged into that circuit is about 3 or 4 incan mini strings that are on a couple of bushes. So there must be a lot of leaks along the path. And what you said makes sense. I actually have problems if there's a lot of dew/moisture, it doesn't even have to be really raining. Off to WalMart I go to pick up things to get my junk off the ground. Hopefully the little old ladies there won't be offended...

As for enslaving Rudolph. He hasn't complained too much yet. Just hope PETA doesn't pass by my house. Not only will they be mad he's pulling around a dude in a sleigh alone, they'll hate how Rudolph's feet are stapled to the wood.