Anyone else building a frame for a 12 ribbon CCR tree?

[Bob VandenBoom]

Hi Frank,

 

Been thinking of building a frame similar to this.  What wall thickness is the aluminum tube?

 

Thanks

[utb ghost]

Frank,

I am almost hooked on the aluminum, as the flat surface seems to make sense. Your design for the tree also being adaptable to basically a straight frame ( say for Halloween) interests me. However, I just looked at the aluminum tube stock at $31.33 ( Lowes) for 8' sections 0f 3/4." That's a need for 24pcs just for the tree, then cross supports, and a few other pieces. Ouch, the frame is getting to be a $1,000 investment. (ok, I have 8 1600W's and tons of lights, and never used but have 15 CCCR's, so maybe I'm being cheap - lol). But I am wondering if you considered anything else?

[Nick Harpold]

Utb ghost-

 

Have you checked prices online. I used metalsdepot.com and the price for all the aluminum and shipping was around 400.00. You might want to check them out.

[utb ghost]

All,

I found a place that will cut 1" aluminum tube stock to lengths up to 253" Evansville Sheet Metal Works. Since 20' sections will not UPS, they will FedEx Ground Ship , at a cost premium. Fortunately for me I am in Evansville, IN every other week on business .......and I think I can strap them to my company car (Caravan) rack to transport. I'm going to see if there is much if any differential costs to cut the pieces to the specific lengths in Frank's drawing elsewhere in the thread.

(http://www.cut2sizemetals.com/images/common/footer-phone.png) I punched in 15 240" pieces and it priced about $752 or so

It's Christmas in the Aire!

[Frank Farmer]

I just went down to the local metal fabrication shop and asked for 20x20' lenghts of 3/4" aluminum tubing with a 1/8" wall. Told him I would pay cash and I was in no hurry, it could wait until his next shipment. He charged me $300.00.

A close up picture of the tree in storage is attached.

I'm guess the increased cost is for shipping? 

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/?attachment_id=724

Frank

 

In fact I just picked up another 20 tubes for another project and a little cheaper this time.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/?attachment_id=725

[Bob VandenBoom]

For those in the Midwest, try Alro Steel http://www.alro.com/  Just bought 21' lengths of 3/4" square with 1/8" wall for about $22 delivered.  Not quite the deal Frank got, but better than Lowes or Metal Depot.  For smaller props you can probably get away with 1/16" wall for cheaper.

[utb ghost]

I stopped in at Evansville Sheet Metal and I think I will be buying from them .... overspec'd at 1" but as Frank noted, 3/4" will do so I need to revise my request. Someone also asked about wall thickness ..... I picked up 20' sections of 1/8 and 1/16 thickness and have to believe the 1/16 is sufficient with the cross member support.

I plan to ue that. My tree will be somewhat free standing so I think I will give it a slight lean, and support with 4 long sections of 1/8" wall thickness as braces

[khawes]

I stopped in at Evansville Sheet Metal and I think I will be buying from them .... overspec'd at 1" but as Frank noted, 3/4" will do so I need to revise my request. Someone also asked about wall thickness ..... I picked up 20' sections of 1/8 and 1/16 thickness and have to believe the 1/16 is sufficient with the cross member support.

I plan to ue that. My tree will be somewhat free standing so I think I will give it a slight lean, and support with 4 long sections of 1/8" wall thickness as braces

At 20' will the 1/6" wall hold up it's own weight?  e.g. if you hold one end and lift it up how much does it bow? and how much difference is the bow between 1/16 and 1/8 walls?  I'll probably go with 1/8 but if there is little difference then 1/16 saves money and that means more lights. 

[Seattlemusicguy48]

This will be my first year with a CCR tree (12 ribbons plus a 3-G star at the top in the usual configuration).

At first I was planning on using rope or PVC conduit but this thread has me (actually my wife concurs, too)

re-thinking my plans.  Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread as there is a goldmine of information

here.

 

So, I am sure I'm going to go with the 3/4 inch square aluminum as Frank has generously provided detailed

plans.  And while its not cheap, I think that its cheap insurance.  Replacement of one CCR Ribbon is near

$200, so I think I can justify the $400 or $500 investment.  After all it would have probably cost $100 to $150

for a rope or conduit set-up, so the cost is really more like $350.

 

I wonder if there is more input on the 1/16 inch vs. 1/8 inch thickness.  However the cost seems to be not that

much more for the thicker stock.  One of the posts earlier mentioned 'Metals Depot' and I priced out 12 sections

of 21 ft. lengths of 3/4 X 1/16 inch vs 3/4 X 1/8 inch.  Including shipping to Seattle, the costs were $422.82 and

$499.94 respectively.  I still need to add a couple of pieces for bracing but it won't be that much more.

 

I plan on attaching my frame to a 20 ft. mast that's 1-3/4 inch aluminum tubing that performs as the support for

my amateur radio antenna the rest of the year.  I plan on removing the antenna for the season, mounting the star

on top and use U-bolts to mount the frame to the mast.  I will probably kluge up a couple of supports at the lower

corners as they will sit about 4 ft. above the ground but  am sure I'll have plenty of extra stock for that.

 

Ken in Seattle

[Frank Farmer]

Hi Ken,

I used the 1/8" wall for my CCR tree and as like you said, it was not much more expensive.  Last year right after Christmas we had a storm come though with 50+mph wind gusts.  Even though the tree wobbled abit at the top, It never folded over. 

 

My plans were to build a structure for my ribbons that would protect them and something that i could use for years and years.

 

I'm using some 1/16" wall tubing for ribbons that I'm putting around the edge of the building. It's being screw into the building at three places (per ~16' length) along the roof line and only has the weight of the ribbon on it. 

 

Since I've used both thicknesses, I would still recommend the 1/8" wall 3/4" aluminum tubing for the CCR tree.

Frank

[Ken Benedict]

I've used this aluminum channel for epoxy coated strings: http://www.prohmi.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ZSS5103

 

But I'm looking at this channel for the CCRs: http://www.prohmi.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=A734

 

or maybe a deeper channel: http://www.prohmi.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=A1359

 

or maybe a thicker version: http://www.prohmi.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=A1250

 

I just ran a flathead screw through the channel so no interference issues.

 

 

I had them sent to my local glass & screen company and picked them up there.

[utb ghost]

khawes, I'm going to defer to Ken's expertise here and go with 1/8. Having discussed my project with the neighbor, (who might be the power source for my tree - lol)he reminded me of the wind tunnel effect between our houses, which is where my tree will be. Consider the investment with intent to preserve the ribbons and have a forever tree structure, I think I'll spend for the 1/8" now. My tree will be free standing so I have to use several pieces for support.<br /><br /><br />

[khawes]

I did too.  I placed my order with Alro for 20 x 20' 3/4 square w/ 1/8" wall.  and a 2' x 2' x 1/2" plate to act as a hub for a Halloween spider web (will bolt 6' spokes to it to form a 12 spoke web.  (It'll be a great clock too.)  It's actually my spider web that sent me down this path, because it's currently 1/2 PVC and can't hold it's own weight.

 

Both my tree and the web are hung fro the peak of my 2nd story roof:  www.christmasoutloud.com 

Edited August 13, 2013 by khawes

[utb ghost]

OK Frank, I rediscovered your star. Couple questions:

1) that's about all of the 20' tube that meets at the top of the star? Not more than 20', correct?

2) are those CCP's or mini's. and how may strings / lights? I'd be ok with white mini's atop the CCR tree this year - white star is ok by me

3) Any guidance on the spacing?

Your info here is most helpful.

[Frank Farmer]

Here are some more pictures of the star being built and some drawings.

 

Drawing for star

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Printoutandframe.pdf

 

Star frame and adding star pieces:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_1050.jpg

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_1052.jpg

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_1054.jpg

 

Putting lights in the star, test1

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMAG0018.jpg

 

Print-out of hole pattern

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Starlighthole.pdf

 

Star cut-out from 4x8' 1/2" PVC plate.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/cutout4.pdf

 

Back-side of finished star:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMAG0038.jpg

 

I'm working on a web-site with a page for more information: Check out what I've started:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net

[Seattlemusicguy48]

Thanks to all who have contributed here, I took the plunge and ordered 15 sections of 21 ft. aluminum in 3/4 inch

square.  I found a source local to Seattle (On-Line Metals) and they were very courteous and I got a good price

(less that $27 per section).  I'll be able to pick up locally and there is no shipping charge.  Wow!

 

Thanks to Frank for his PDF file showing the details of the frame layout.  I was able to adopt it to determine exactly

what I needed.

 

Now one more request:  Frank, can you describe a little how you used the stainless screws to assemble your frame.

How long and what size did you use and how large did you drill the mounting holes.

 

Thanks, yet again,

Ken in West Seattle

     (Off to start working on those CCR sequences).

[Frank Farmer]

Acutally I used SS bolts. I think I did say screws in a previous post. Here are some close-up pictures of how I did it. 

The main goal was to keep the ribbons perfectly flat.  Also to have something that I could take apart and put back together next year...and the next...

This is how they are stored right now:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_20130807_112330_8021.jpg

 

From the top, back view:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0920.jpg

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0952.jpg

 

side view:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/100_0927.jpg

 

Ribbon side, showing hole where the bolt head goes through and is below the level of the ribbon:

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0925.jpg

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0956.jpg

 

I took tons of pictures, so let me know if there is something you need more detail on.

Frank

[Seattlemusicguy48]

Frank-

Great pictures and it inspires me to take some when I put mine together.

 

Just to clarify from what I see, you are using 1/4 bolts, drilling a hole to

clear the head on the CCR side of the square aluminum, and drilling AND

tapping the hole on the opposite side (to hold the bolt in place).  Then simple

clearance holes on the cross members and diagonals and finally a nut to

hold it all together. 

 

Again, Thanks!

Ken

[khawes]

If the bolt head will not turn inside the tube you could get away w/o needing to tap, the ribbon (or a dab of hot glue if you are using pixels) would prevent the bolt from slipping out.  

 

Though drilling through the back side only and taping that hole, would let you screw the cross members directly to the main tubes, no bolts/nuts needed.

Edited August 15, 2013 by khawes

[Frank Farmer]

Frank-

Great pictures and it inspires me to take some when I put mine together.

 

Just to clarify from what I see, you are using 1/4 bolts, drilling a hole to

clear the head on the CCR side of the square aluminum, and drilling AND

tapping the hole on the opposite side (to hold the bolt in place).  Then simple

clearance holes on the cross members and diagonals and finally a nut to

hold it all together. 

 

Again, Thanks!

Ken

 

I'm using #10 SS bolts, but 1/4" should work fine.

I'm NOT tapping anything. In the past I have found aluminum to soft to tap, It's possible, but I didn't want to count on that.

Yes, I drilled hole to clear the head on of the bolt on the ribbon side, inserting a bolt with a lock washer, then putting a nut on the bolt to hold it to that piece of tubing. Here is a better picture.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0928.jpg

The bolt is now part of that tube and dose not ever get removed once the ribbon is in place. The bolts are 2" long, as you can see from the picture, I probably could have gone with 1 3/4" length.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0952.jpg

The bolt that is sticking out now goes through the crossmember and get another lock washer and nut.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/100_0920.jpg

 

I'm sure there are better ways to do this, I'm an electrical Engineer by training, not a structial engineer. However I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out and how well it held up to the weather last year.

I have all my ribbons on top a some racks, wraped in bubble wrap to keep the ribbons from being damaged.

http://lightshow.franktronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_20130807_112330_8021.jpg

(Anyone notice the LOR controllers on the second rack back?)

I'm expecing to build the tree back up and have it installed in less than a day, when the time comes.

Frank