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Controlling a train with lor


Don In Kenner-LA

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Hi All is there any way of controlling a train in a display using LOR . to run and stop its on a track so it would need to be wireless. I saw the wireless transmitters would this be what i use and if so would i need two.



Thanks Don

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It may not be that simple. What type train do you want to control? Is it one of those "ride on trains (like Prego)" or something like a G-Gauge? What type of power are you using for the train -- from a transformer/power supply connected to the track or on-board battery?

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Don In Kenner-LA wrote:

Hi All is there any way of controlling a train in a display using LOR . to run and stop its on a track so it would need to be wireless. I saw the wireless transmitters would this be what i use and if so would i need two.



Thanks Don

If you're assuming an AC (CTB16PC or equivalent) controller "riding" on the train, with an ELL connected, you need to power the controller, so that option not an easy one.

A bit easier may be a DC controller board (CMB16), and then you have a lot of options as far as powering the board, and, can use the ELL if you simply want to send an on/off signal on one channel to control the train.

You'll need to consider some sort of power switching interface between the controller board and the train motor itself, such as an electromechanical or solid state relay.

You could also consider some additional lighting on the train using the other channels, but power consumption needs to be considered.
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You can control an ~AC~ train via LOR through it's power pack {Transformer} which converts ~AC~ into DC on the rails. Just NOT outside!

Just plug the train tansformer into an CTB16PC or ~AC~ LOR controller, set the throttle at the speed to which you want the train to operate. Just make sure you DO NOT USE "shimmer", "Fades", or any "special lighting" effects. This will work with ON/OFF COMMANDS ONLY.

I ran my G Gauge Christmas Train like this inside last year{2011}, was not visible from outside, it was under and around the base of our interior Christmas Tree.

Worked great. Now if this were OUTSIDE, which is what I'm thinking you're doing, wet weather, sprinklers,standing water or an wet object that would connect both rails will cause a dead short. So you wouldn't want to run a DC or even an ~AC~ powered {like O gauge} in any type of wet weather where there is power through the rails. I'd say that's just asking for problems at some point.

On that score, you'd want it to be powered by on-board batteries, but not sure how you would incorporate the LOR EZ-Linkers for something like that or the DC controller.

It's why I don't run my trains outside using the LOR controllers {CTB16PC}, but only indoors because if the tracks got shorted by water or something wet lying across the rails, I'd be very likely to blow out a Triac or worse, the entire controller board.

But if inside and like in a window display, it's not at all difficult to do and no relay or special wiring needed.

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Train enthusiasts like to use a system called DCC. (Digital Command and Control). Basically the tracks are powered at full power all the time, and commands are sent to the locomotive through the track. This allows multiple locomotive to use the same track and they can run at different speeds and directions.

They also have sound kits that are installed in the locomote to simulate diesel/steam engine sounds and horns/whistles. The neat thing about this is that the sound moves with the locomotive, and the engine sounds come at a faster rhythm the faster the train is moving.

Not sure if this would work with LOR though, maybe a servo connection???

BTW, I thought running motors with LOR was a no-no.

Jerry

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The DCC system "could" be controlled from the computer. I have run DCC for some years, and have a serial port connection to the DCC unit. There is a published protocol, and newer units use USB connections. So, small matter of programming - power would come from the DCC system itself, the Lightorama system could just send DCC commands via the interface...

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LORisAwesome wrote:

BTW, I thought running motors with LOR was a no-no.

Jerry



I've read that too Jerry {AFTER, I'd already been running mine!}, but why can't an ~AC~ LOR controller be capable of turning on or off an ~AC~ 120V powered motor?

If it were a DC motor connected to an ~AC~ Controller like the CTB16PC, I could foresee problems, or some bigger issues with that, because the motor would in all probablilty short out, burn up, and let out the secret smoke in probably both the motor and the controller it's connected to.

But I can't see how an ~AC~ motor being used could create any problems, UNLESS you're using the special lighting effects like shimmer, twinkle, or the lighting percetage commands. Which someome might try, thinking they could get the motor to go slower, which may or may not work{usually doesn't}, but will cause the motor to overheat, burn out and create problems. I use only FULL ON and OFF commands to control the ~AC~ motors in my display, again, have been since 2010 and I've never had any issues with running them from LOR CTB16PC controllers this way.

But as long as you're turning an ~AC~ motor FULL ON or OFF with no special lighting commands, the CTB16PC does a fine job of it!

Again, I've ran my animated wireframe ~AC~ motorized deer and my ~AC~ motorized Halloween wireframe Black Cat and Spider off my CTB16PC Controller 5 since I started in this hobby and my first show being Halloween 2010. And the 2 ~AC~ motors were on one controller, same with the 4 ~AC~ motors on the wireframe deer.

So I'm still not sure why some say running motors off an LOR ~AC~ controller would be a no-no, unless the motor isn't an ~AC~ motor.

Again, I have never had a problem doing this in the 2 years I've been using these ~AC~ motorized wireframes in my displays.

But I'll leave that up to the end users judgement if they want to try doing this, as I can not make any guarantee that what has worked for me, may/may not work for others.

So you try this at your own risk.

I'm just stating MY experiences using 120V ~AC~ motorized wireframes in my display on CTB16PC Controllers.

Your experience and mileage may be totally and completely different.




EDIT: Hit a 1 instead of 5 on the numeric keypad for the CTB16PC controller my ~AC~ motorized wireframes were connected to.

EDIT 2: BTW: Don't some folks use CTB16PC controllers to power water fountain punps? That's an ~AC~ 120V motor being controlled too!
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Guest wbottomley

I can understand why so many user have problems.

What happens when a motor first starts? It pulls an excessive amount of current. If that amount goes over 16 amps (pre gen 3 controllers) or 25 amps (gen 3 controllers) the triac fails.

Back to the old wise LOR knowledge... resistive loads are better than inductive loads.

The best advice a person can give here... is use a DC board with high power relays. Or... use a DIO32 card with a daughter card with relays.

Now... I remember Dan mentioning that inductive loads could be used on gen 3 units. He or John can chime in about that.

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May be better to do away with the LOR board all together and purchase an Autoreversing unit. Search for model train parts. Some if not most will allow you to stop, start, reverse, ect multiple times on the track. Used to have a link for one, can't find right now.

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Orville,

Read about CEMF known as counter electro motive force. This is the voltage created when a magnetic field collapse around a coil of wires such as on a motor or door bell (old kind) or a very large contactor coil. It is many times more voltage than what was being applied. This spike might punch a hole in the PNP material of the Triac causing a short. The new Gen 3 boards might have MOVs to suppress the spike.

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Don In Kenner-LA wrote:

the train is going to be powerd through rail 12volts dc

don


Depending on the current you could use a DC card. If you are just going to start/stop the train (no speed control) then your best bet is to get an 120vac relay and use one of the channels on a controller to trigger the relay on/off. You can then put the 12vdc though the contacts. This would be the least expensive way to go. If using a Gen2 controller add a small C7 or C9 bulb in parellel with the relay's coil.

Dan
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You can probably use the Servo Dog to control an ESC (electronic speed control) from an electric RC car.
The speed control uses the same signal as a servo and would give variable speed forward and reverse.
Robert

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Orville wrote:


But I can't see how an ~AC~ motor being used could create any problems, UNLESS you're using the special lighting effects like shimmer, twinkle, or the lighting percetage commands.


Orville, I know this has been discussed on this board almost as many times as you have posts.

If it’s a straight inductive load and you only turn it full on and full off, there isn’t going to be a problem as long as the surge current isn’t too high for the TRIAC. The TRIAC turns on at the beginning of the AC wave and off at the end. No big deal. Something like an animated deer, you can even dim it because the surge current is so low that the surge current in the middle of the wave is so low.

The phase shift of the current, caused by the inductor, with respect to the voltage may cause the output voltage of the TRIAC to be lower than what is expected though. The supply voltage is what the zero-cross circuitry is referencing but the current is what determines when the TRIAC shuts off. It won’t have an effect on something like an animated deer because the AC frequency is what determines the speed of that type of motor, not the voltage or current. The voltage and current just need to be high enough to supply the horse power needed. If the voltage is too low and full voltage is needed (i.e. a power transformer), just add some resistance (i.e. a light bulb) to counter the inductance a bit.

Where you can get into trouble though, is with a motor that has brushes. Anything that arcs when running is probably going to burn out the TRIAC. Because the brushes make and break, you’re going to have times when they open while the AC voltage is high. This is where the high voltage kick-back will be a problem. Because it’s going to happen many times at a rapid rate,, the TRIAC probably won’t last very long. In this case, the only solution is a mechanical relay.
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BTW: Another question:

Since a trains ~AC~ in DC out power pack {G, HO, N or Z scale} is basically a rheostat, i.e. variable resistor, this should not cause any type of backfeed or ~AC~ inductance would it?

Well UNLESS it's an O Gauge power pack, then it's ~AC~ in ~AC~ out, but that may not hold true for all O gauge, I know it's common for 3 rail, but 2 rail may be DC, but I can't say for certain as I only own the 3 rail O Gauge type.

I personally don't think it would, but I'm going to leave this one more to the experts.

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