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Water Fountains


John2571

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For the 4th of July I am hoping to make a water show with 4 rows of 20 fountains. I would like to be able to change the hight of the jets, have RGB spots on each of them, and possible have 4 or 5 moving jets. My budget is 1000$ so I need major help planning this.

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John2571 wrote:

For the 4th of July I am hoping to make a water show with 4 rows of 20 fountains. I would like to be able to change the hight of the jets, have RGB spots on each of them, and possible have 4 or 5 moving jets. My budget is 1000$ so I need major help planning this.


When you say 4 rows of 20 fountains, do you mean 80 separate fountains each on there own pump or 4 pumps one four each row. Also what is the size that you are going for. How high do you want the water to shoot. Moving Jets or "Whips" are not that hard to build but can cost well over $1000 each. $1000.00 is not that much.

I have been doing side work for a show automation company. For the past 4 years I was working on the VFD's and I/O controls for the biggest water show in the world "World of Color". I know things. What ever help I can give I will.

I have been going back and forth with doing a water show at Christmas but even with the inside info I have it still would cost quite a bit.

Steve
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I would like(if possible) to have each fountain controlled individually. As for hight, I would like them to go about 20feet and the middle 4 to go 40. Also, for LED lighting I have seen the C-Splash from color kinetics but is there anything cheaper? (i could try to make my budget 5000$ but that would eliminate my RGB roof grid for this year)

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John2571 wrote:

I would like(if possible) to have each fountain controlled individually. As for hight, I would like them to go about 20feet and the middle 4 to go 40. Also, for LED lighting I have seen the C-Splash from color kinetics but is there anything cheaper? (i could try to make my budget 5000$ but that would eliminate my RGB roof grid for this year)



How many C- Splashes do you want. I am selling refurbished C-splashes. New you can get them for $800 to $1200 each. I have palettes of them. PM me for the refurbished price.

If you want to have individual fountain control you will need a pump and VFD for each. You can also do a pump and VFD for every 4 or 5 and use a solenoid valve for control of each.

Steve
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How many C-splash fixtures would I need for 80 fountains? (they will be spaced 1-2 feet apart) Also, if I used 1 pump for every 4 or 5 fountains, what would the price be per a pump(I would need 20) Finely, how would I control the pumps and valves? Could I use LOR? DMX?

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As for the pumps, could you recommend something in a good price range(under500$) As for the pic, what lights are you using? How are your pumps controlled(do they change hight?) Also, how do you wire the pumps to their controller?

You help is greatly appreciated

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Is it possible to get 1 variable speed pump for each row(4 pumps), attach each to a LOR DC controller, and set different intensities to control hight? Would 1 C-splash be enough for 4 water fountains? Would I use AC valves for each fountain or DC?

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John2571 wrote:

would a valve from this website work in stead of a variable speed pump?
http://www.kzvalve.com/


it is possible to use a valve like that, but you are going to need to make sure you don't dead head the pump

If you go that route, you will need a bypass, allowing the water to divert when the variable valve is closed

as for a variable valve, I personally like ClaVal's roll seal, they make a 24v variable valve.
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Dr. Jones wrote:

John2571 wrote:
would a valve from this website work in stead of a variable speed pump?
http://www.kzvalve.com/


it is possible to use a valve like that, but you are going to need to make sure you don't dead head the pump What is dead ending?

If you go that route, you will need a bypass, allowing the water to divert when the variable valve is closed How do you connect a bypass?

as for a variable valve, I personally like ClaVal's roll seal, they make a 24v variable valve. How would you connect? control one of those valves? Would I have 1 valve pre a fountain or 1 for a row? Would I still need a pump?
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John2571 wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:
John2571 wrote:
would a valve from this website work in stead of a variable speed pump?
http://www.kzvalve.com/


it is possible to use a valve like that, but you are going to need to make sure you don't dead head the pump What is dead ending?

If you go that route, you will need a bypass, allowing the water to divert when the variable valve is closed How do you connect a bypass?

as for a variable valve, I personally like ClaVal's roll seal, they make a 24v variable valve. How would you connect? control one of those valves? Would I have 1 valve pre a fountain or 1 for a row? Would I still need a pump?

Deadheading the pump means to close all the valves on a pump. At that point, the pump pressure will stall the pump, leading to burning it up, burst piping or worse.

The bypass is, i essence, a pressure relief valve to prevent excessive pressure in the lines caused by closing all valves on a pump.

And yes, you will always need a pump, otherwise there's nothing to move the water :)

-Gary-
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Could you recommend a valve and a pump for my fountains and instructions on how to connect it?(I would use 1 varriable speed pump per a row[i will have 4] and 1 valve per a fountain[i will have 80])

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First let me say for the size of the pumps you will need there is no way that a lor controller will be able to control it directly, you cannot use a standard lor board to control the speed of a motor. Dan has been developing a board for this purpose. But it would still not work based on the size you would need.

as others have stated if you want to have a variable speed pump you will need to have a VFD or variable frequency drive for each pump you plan to have.

I like this single phase VFD myself. I have installed these on our water games at Kings Island, the nice thing is it has programmable relay inputs that allows you to enable a certain relay and pre-program a particular speed so in theory you can have 5 separate relay inputs with 5 different speeds programmed into the controller

they are not cheap they run around $200 each so you are looking at $800 just for your VFD's then the cost of pumps comes in to play.

more than likely you will want to create a (constant pressure-variable flow) system meaning that you want to keep the water pressure the same at all times but adjust the flow according to how many valves you will want open at any given time.

as steve pointed out this endeavor will not be cheap to have as many fountains that you said (80) i dont think $5000 would not even come close to what you are wanting to acheive especially if you want 4 of your fountains on each row to be able to go 40' high. that would take some serious pumping power and i would guess that the pumps you would need would be around 5-600 apiece you will have to take into account the factor of discharge head meaning you have to find a pump that has a total head higher than the point you are want to reach.

next week sometime (this is the busiest time for us, winter rehab) I will get with the plumbing guy at the park and get some pump model #'s that would be adequate for what you are wanting to do. I mainly handle the electrical side of things at the park. I will also work up a wiring diagram for you, but it will be later in the week before i could respond

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Come over here to QLD Aust. we have soooo much water here we have fountains everywhere..........under house, over house, over roads, through roads, everywhere!! :) we got to try and laugh about it or else we would shrivel up and die. (no pun intended)

cheers from "Sunny" Queensland

David

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kingsislandtechservices wrote:

First let me say for the size of the pumps you will need there is no way that a lor controller will be able to control it directly, you cannot use a standard lor board to control the speed of a motor. Dan has been developing a board for this purpose. But it would still not work based on the size you would need.

as others have stated if you want to have a variable speed pump you will need to have a VFD or variable frequency drive for each pump you plan to have.

I like this single phase VFD myself. I have installed these on our water games at Kings Island, the nice thing is it has programmable relay inputs that allows you to enable a certain relay and pre-program a particular speed so in theory you can have 5 separate relay inputs with 5 different speeds programmed into the controller

they are not cheap they run around $200 each so you are looking at $800 just for your VFD's then the cost of pumps comes in to play.

more than likely you will want to create a (constant pressure-variable flow) system meaning that you want to keep the water pressure the same at all times but adjust the flow according to how many valves you will want open at any given time.

as steve pointed out this endeavor will not be cheap to have as many fountains that you said (80) i dont think $5000 would not even come close to what you are wanting to acheive especially if you want 4 of your fountains on each row to be able to go 40' high. that would take some serious pumping power and i would guess that the pumps you would need would be around 5-600 apiece you will have to take into account the factor of discharge head meaning you have to find a pump that has a total head higher than the point you are want to reach.

next week sometime (this is the busiest time for us, winter rehab) I will get with the plumbing guy at the park and get some pump model #'s that would be adequate for what you are wanting to do. I mainly handle the electrical side of things at the park. I will also work up a wiring diagram for you, but it will be later in the week before i could respond


as stated above. The size of a system you are wanting to design is not cheap. The size of the pump/s inaddition to the control system will vary greatly. The size of the system you are describing would also potentially not be feasible on a consumer power feed.
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Thanks for all your help! As for my water fountains, I have taken into account all of the things that all of you have said and have now decided to make a smaller layout consisting of 3 rows in a circle (first row has 18, the second 9, and the middle 3). The first 2 rows would have their own vfd each, and the middle only be set to 1 hight(30ft) the rest only need to go 15-20ft high. A hope my small budget would accommodate this. Also, if you have any recommendations to how to set this up it would be great:)

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