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Importing Channel Config - Confusion


zeighty

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First my apologies for asking such a question (perhaps more than one...). I have been doing this for 4 years and I am not sure how I have made it this far without addressing this "problem".

When I first started I did not do a good job of standardizing my channel names. It has got worse over the years since.  So, after searching the forums to almost no success, I seek advice and direction from those that are far more knowledgable than me. No offense intended, but it would not take much to know more than me.  Enough diatribe, on with the questions. 

I have picked a sequence (purchased from LOR) that has been tweaked for my setup. I like the channel names and exported it. 

When I import it to another sequence - disaster... it does not work correctly.  I sincerely do not understand what is going on.  Now I may be overthinking it and I have stared at it for too many hours over the last month. I am going to make an assumption... the export is just exporting the data on a line by line basis. So if I have a non-networked channel for Beat in one sequence, but not the other, when imported the channels are goofed up.  The more differences, the larger the problem becomes. 

I was stupid, as I have so many different channel setups in my sequences this may be a very time consuming process. 

Thank you so much in advance for taking your time to help!  It is appreciated very much.  

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When you import a channel config it overwrites the current channels you have, in other words you can't combine the channels. Your best bet is to set up the channel config you want then export it and import that channel config for all the sequences you want to use.

If you add props or anything to a current config then you will need to export that config and import it into all the current sequences you wish to use.

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You are correct. The import is on a line by line basis.  What I have learned from others in the forum is to use tracks.  Track 1 should be used as your "master". It stays the same in every sequence. Other tracks can be added and changed however you want.

When you add new channels, add them at the end of the first track, then export the configuration and import it into the other sequences.  Never delete channels from the first track or the order will be off when you export and import.

To get your existing sequences to a point where you can import the configuration you wanted, you will need to open them and order the channels in the same order as the one you have chosen.  Don't worry about the names, just make sure that the channels are the same.  There may be an easier way, but this is what I did. It takes some time, depending on the number of channels you have, but once you have it done you should not have to do it again.

Here is the original thread: 

Todd

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Just to add a little more, this is where you need to learn how to use Tracks. All of your sequences should use the same channel config so it is easy to import channel configs. Where Tracks come in is when you need to rearrange channels for different sequences to make it easier to sequence by putting like channels together.

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zeighty     How many channels do you have?    If I understand correctly, you have songs which have different arrangement of channels.  You have not been using a common configuration because that prevents the sequence from playing correctly. 

The thing to remember about importing is the EFFECTS stay the same while the channel assignments will be replaced.    If for instance you have  trees at the top of a sequence and another where the same trees are down further in the sequence.  Exporting and importing is this case would cause the tree effects to play on the wrong prop.   It seems like you have  selected the common config you want to use for all sequences.   Now before you import, you need to slide your rows up and down to match the config you want to import.   This has nothing to do with the names or unit/channel.    Get your order firm in your head.. IE   trees 1st, then windows on right,  candy canes, windows on left  etc.    For each song then slide them up and down to the EXACT same position.  It cant be off by one.  Then you will be ready to import without the side effect of playing the effects on the wrong prop.  

This may seem tedious but I think you will be happy you put this time into it.   I have another suggestion and that is to Name and Date your config with the change.   What I mean is before you export, rename track one.. to for example.   "fixed name of trees 07/08 ".  Then export then import to the others.    Using this method it will be very clear in each sequence at the top which config that song has.  You wont have to notice later that the prop name is different on this one or another.    

 

Edited by ItsMeBobO
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There is the human readable part of a sequence, and the computer readable part. (Which is readable if you know what you are looking for.)

The problem is that when you create a channel an ID is created for it. It's not an ID that you see, or will use. However, the same ID can be used in other sequences as well. Thus if you import a channel configuration (lcc) into a sequence that you've already defined channels for, then "bad things happen." (Meaning I don't remember which gets priority, but as you've seen, it's not pretty.)

It's been YEARS since I've updated this post, but it should still be 98% accurate or so.
http://www.lorfaq.com/faqs/software-questions/sequence-editor/41-tracks-what-they-are-and-how-they-can-benefit-you.html

That will explain the concept of tracks, and how you would use them to maintain your channel layout.

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14 minutes ago, Don said:

There is the human readable part of a sequence, and the computer readable part. (Which is readable if you know what you are looking for.)

The problem is that when you create a channel an ID is created for it. It's not an ID that you see, or will use. However, the same ID can be used in other sequences as well. Thus if you import a channel configuration (lcc) into a sequence that you've already defined channels for, then "bad things happen." (Meaning I don't remember which gets priority, but as you've seen, it's not pretty.)

It's been YEARS since I've updated this post, but it should still be 98% accurate or so.
http://www.lorfaq.com/faqs/software-questions/sequence-editor/41-tracks-what-they-are-and-how-they-can-benefit-you.html

That will explain the concept of tracks, and how you would use them to maintain your channel layout.

That's a good read! 

JR

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There is a way you can add a channel config to an existing sequence. If your new channel config is lets say 16 channels you can open an existing sequence, right click on the very first channel and select "Insert Multiple Channels Above", select 16 channels. This will add 16 New Channels at the top of the sequence. Then you can import your 16 channel config and it will replace the 16 New Channels that you previously added without touching the channels below.

Word of warning: You will have to probably reprogram Controller # as I don't know how you have your sequences programmed. You will also need to verify that adding channels to the top of the sequence didn't mess anything up below. It is always recommended to add channels at the bottom and not the top.

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On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:39 AM, ItsMeBobO said:

zeighty     How many channels do you have?    If I understand correctly, you have songs which have different arrangement of channels.  You have not been using a common configuration because that prevents the sequence from playing correctly. 

I am using 4 controllers but have 6 in my sequences for growth as well as some were purchased or free sequences that had more controllers than I have. So I am using 64 channels, of which a few are left open in case of midseason triac problems. So I have 96 channel as far as S4 is concerned.

Most sequences are the same as far as networked channels go, though they are named differently.  Some sequences have extra channels that are for beat or other timing marks. They are not networked (No Device Type selected). Everything I have done are track 1 items. I didn't understand tracks. 

My simple and short example:

First 4 networked channels are roofline. This is true of every sequence I have. Some sequences have the first channel for timing marks and other channels as "place keepers" and they are not networked. This is where I think my problem is based. If I were starting over, I would have standardized channels and only add new controllers to the bottom of track one. I would manipulate channels on another track.

As for the others that have expounded on the use of tracks, it will not help be at this time. Too many sequences with too much different in them to consider doing this now. I do see how it works, but I do not see how if fixes the situation I have. As you can tell from my questions, I am not the LOR S4 experts that you guys are. I may be missing something with tracks, so be sure to chime in if there is a way to apply them as a fix to my situation.

In the linked photos (I could not get the photos into the post - probably a size problem) you will see the differences in two sequences.  It appears that in the channel column it does not matter what is there, it counts. So if it is not used (No Device Type Selected) it still counts when pertaining to importing another channel configuration. The import process does not look at the Channel Configuration and use only networked channels.

Carol of the Bells sample

Little Drummer Boy sample

I think you (Bob O) could write a channel importing utility to match up "row" to "channel" used. This would be useful for me because, every sequence I have every networked channel is to the same prop. Controller 1, circuit 01 - Always roofline left, etc.

Edited by zeighty
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Whenever I get a free or purchased sequence I ALWAYS just open and copy paste in my config. Immediey if I plan on using it. That way I don't have a boatload of unassigned sequences that would take forever to copy/ paste or otherwise get into my config later on.

I place the originals in a folder named Purchased from or shared by, that way I always have the original and I never mistakenly share it.

when I create my sequence with it for the title I always put- "from whoever, do not share".

JR

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Zeighty - IMO, what you need to do is create, from scratch, a sequence that incorporates all your existing channels.  Forget about extra channels for future growth - adding them as you need them is easier than clipping your toenails - use just the channels you have now.  Forget about having channels listed together by controller - that doesn't have any purpose in the sequence.  List your channels in a way that makes sense to your brain.  Once you've got that done, save the configuration - this is what you'll use each time you create a new sequence.  From that time forward, you cannot change the order of those channels, nor can you delete any of them, or add any new ones between any of them.  Doing so brings you back to here. 

Now here's the part that might make you cry:  The only way out of your mess is to copy and paste all your existing sequencing from all your existing sequences into new sequences using the configuration you created above.  Every sequence - channel by channel if you have to.  Anything else is just a band-aid and won't solve the underlying problem.  Been there, done that.  Yes, it's a pain.  (The price of being stupid, I call it.)  Once you complete each sequence, GET RID OF THE OLD ONE.  Either discard it completely, or move it to someplace that has nothing whatsoever to do with the LOR files on your PC.  But get rid of them. 

That will get everything straightened out for this year and build an error-free foundation for future years.

 

 

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Just to re-enforce what the others have said. You need to have the channels in some sort of order that makes sense to your brain, like George said. You can have a "timing channel" (or 3, or 10...). Once you have one sequence with the channels in the order you like, that becomes your master. You can export the channel config and get ready to import to the other sequences. 

Before you start importing the channel config to your other sequences, you need to go through each of them and make sure that your channels are in the EXACT SAME order as you have them in your "master" sequence. That includes timing channels. You can drag and drop them where you need to move them to. Just be careful that they are in the SAME ORDER as in the master. You don't have to worry about what you named them from sequence to sequence, just that they control the same lights. For instance, first a timing channel, then mini trees, then roof line lights, then arches, then another timing channel, then mega trees, then candy canes, then another timing channel. If that's what's in the master sequence, that's what HAS to be in the rest of the sequences before you import. When you do the import, the channel names will all match, the controller and circuit assignments will all be in the same order, and everything will be pretty. Not rocket science, but tedious. Then when you go to program a brand new sequence, you create the file,  Assign the media file, and then import the channel config. You will be ready to start programming the new sequence with exactly the same config as the rest of your sequences. 

If you need to add props, they MUST be added to the bottom of the channel list. After you've set up the new channels in one of your sequences, export it. That one is now your master. You can then open each of your other sequences and import THAT channel config. The new channels will be added to the bottom of the channel list, ready to be programmed, all without disturbing the existing channels.

Hope some of this helps you out. It's not hard and will save you time in the long run.

D.T.

 

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George you are the man!  I got it. Your explanation really "clicked" with me.    DownTown your comments are very helpful as well. I have a lot of work to do, but it needs to be done.   

To all that responded - Thank you for your advice.  I have learned a lot.  I should have done this 4 years ago, but I am stubborn and have my stupid times as well. 

Perhaps most Newbies get it, but 4 years ago I did not.  Now I am paying!  

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15 hours ago, zeighty said:

George you are the man!  I got it. Your explanation really "clicked" with me.    DownTown your comments are very helpful as well. I have a lot of work to do, but it needs to be done.   

To all that responded - Thank you for your advice.  I have learned a lot.  I should have done this 4 years ago, but I am stubborn and have my stupid times as well. 

Perhaps most Newbies get it, but 4 years ago I did not.  Now I am paying!  

Thanks.  When I got started in 2008 with 144 channels I was fine.  When I added 96 more in 2009, it started getting away from me and with another 90 or so in 2010 it was completely out of control.  I can't tell you how many sequences I scrambled doing just what you've been doing.  At the time, Steven Scroch (sp?) was preaching loud and long about the benefits of the master track concept, but of course I was too smart for that sort of thing.  When I finally hit the wall, I took a closer look, and the master track process suddenly made sense.  Since then, I've continued to update every sequence each year and have had NOT EVEN ONE issue or error.

IMO, anyone with more channels than they can see on their screen (in landscape orientation) is somewhere between foolish and crazy if they're not doing the master track thing.  In Sequence U, I spend as much as an hour covering it in the very first class.

Edited by George Simmons
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