Using LOR controllers in the UK

[JohnF]

Hi all,

New to synchronised lighting this year (taking the plunge from having my static display for a few years).

I have some plans, but also some questions, that I am hoping you can kindly help me with.

As you probably guessed form the title, I am based in the uk, where we have 240v mains 3 pin plugs (Live, Neutral and Earth)

One of the features I will be installing this year is the Holiday Coro singing Christmas trees, (the led bulb ones not the RGB pixel design they have), I chose the LED bulbs, as the spacing and finished effect, to me looks much nicer than the RGB ones they do.

In order to run the 4 xmas trees, I would need 32 channels, and by far the best solution out there would appear to be the 16 channel LOR controllers (x2). (Which hopefully I can get in the Spring sale).

The choices I am struggling with are:

1) Get the LOR controller with all cables ready to go in 120v, (using a step down to get to the 120v which would accept USA plug) and then source the LEDS for the trees from the USA. Pros for this approach are: The "M5 Led" bulb recommended for the HC product would appear to only be on sale in USA, I have not found it in the UK yet (but other bulbs we do have may fit), No changing or cutting of power cords required. Cons: Higher cost of bulbs (due to shipping), any extension cables required would need extra planning (no last minute trips to local DIY store possible to get USA leads)

2) The other idea I have considered is getting the LOR controllers in 240v variety, however, they do not come with UK power cords (would need to make my own), not sure at this stage if this would be 2 or 3 core lead, (does anyone know?). Pros: Obviously cheaper to source the LEDS and any extension leads, both for original parts and if anything goes wrong during the season the display is running. Cons: This is where most of my questions kick in, so..

Question 1) As the LOR controller in 240v is more of a customised product is it less likely to be included in any spring sale (from past experience?) Therefore leading to higher initial price for option 2.

Question 2) Does anyone know if there is an equivalent bulb to an "M5" readily available in the UK in different colours? 

Question 3) The LED bulbs I have seen in the UK, whilst running off of 240v, have a transformer built in to the plug, is this the same in the USA 110v Leds? I am worried that if I go down the route of option 2, I would introduce delays, possibly not consistent due to transformers in-line, whereas option 1, all that is taken care of before the controllers.

Thank you ever so much

John

 

 

.

 

[OzAz]

Hi John,

I'm a newbie too, but from Australia where we also have 240V AC and thus similar issues.

If the UK is anything like here in Aus, 240V AC lights are very scarce. The LEDs you mention in Q3 with the transformers can not be run on an AC Controller without modifying the transformer, I found an article here about that: http://auschristmaslighting.com/wiki/Bypassing_Multi_Function_Controllers not for the feint hearted.

I got some ready made singing tree faces from a company here in Aus and they use 24V DC M5 LED strings http://www.christmascreations.net.au/colour-mix.html These can be run from the LOR DC Controllers. So perhaps that's an option?

[JohnF]

Wow, great help thank you so much!! (Glad I am not alone!!)

I have just emailed the guys at Christmas Creations to see if they will ship to the UK, so fingers crossed! As not much luck in finding similar over here.

When you say they can be run from the DC controllers, are you referring to the CMB-24D? 

I only ask, as I am a little confused how the RGB controllers work with non RGB LEDs as will the controller not try to set the colour which won't be possible? Or am I missing something? Sorry, still got a hell of a lot to learn!!

 

 

[EmmienLightFan]

Hi!

I am also in the UK. Things are quite different here.

I recently started a tiny forum to help UK lighters.

ukchristmaslights.co.uk

 

RGB controllers just dim lights really. They have no idea what they are connected to.

The colour changing is done by varying the levels of red, green and blue lights.

If you connect some single channel lights, it works fine.

 

Most lights sold here will not work on a CTB16PC (Mains voltage controller). They use 24VAC.

You can use about 30VDC.

You need to cut off the multi-function controller that most lights have.

If you have those new lights with only two wires and two series (The polarity reversal ones), then you won't be able to get every LED to come on at once.

 

The best LOR controller for this is the CMB16-QC. The CMB24D's maximum voltage is 30 volts, so it is best to go a little higher.

[JohnF]

Hi,

Thank you! Makes sense!! Will popover and have a look around your forum

So (just to make sure i have totally understood correctly) If I purchase standard LEDs over here that have the multi function controller that transforms to 24vAC, I can cut off this controller and if I have 30v DC power supplied to the CMB16-QC (X2 I guess one for each bank of 8?) the Lights would work? 24v AC can run at 30v DC no problem?

Also, if I have 8 strings (one one each channel) do I need to put in more than 30v to allow for the drain form all 8 channels? Not really sure where to begin on calculating how much power is required, or if each string added raises the amount needed..

Thanks again for your help!!

John

[EmmienLightFan]

2 hours ago, JohnF said:

24v AC can run at 30v DC no problem?

Inside the multi-function controller, or inside a piece of rubber, there is a component called a rectifier. This converts the 24 VAC to DC, but as it does it the voltage increases a little, to around 29 volts. Because of this a 30 volt DC power supply is perfect.

 

I use connectable lights. They are a light string with a round waterproof plug on one and and socket on the other. You buy the transformer and multi-function controller (MFC) separately and can chain several strings (Quite a lot) end to end. This means that you are not paying for those each time, because you won't need them.

The power supplies for those normally have a table showing how many lights you can use. The medium sized ones are 2 amps, I think, and that can power thousands of lights. It tells on on Festive Light's website and most lights use about the same.

I used a 120 watt power supply from Ali Express. It cost around £20 including delivery. You can use one for both sides, or even more several controllers, just as long as you work out power requirements and stay below.

I didn't use a CMB16-GC, because it is expensive and I didn't have much time. If I could I would have used it, but I was only controlling a couple of sets of lights.

Most strings have two or more series which can be individually controlled. You can do some simple chases, and if the lights have different series in different colours, you can do some nice effects.

[JohnF]

Perfect, thank you - I think I get it, I may come back to you with a couple of questions though if you don't mind..

Will also keep an eye out for the CMB16-GC in the sales

[EmmienLightFan]

30 minutes ago, JohnF said:

Perfect, thank you - I think I get it, I may come back to you with a couple of questions though if you don't mind..

Will also keep an eye out for the CMB16-GC in the sales

Oops. I meant QC. Autocorrect didn't think that was a word.

[JohnF]

Ah yeah, I didn't notice either when copying and pasting

[Orville]

Hi John,  I'm not in the UK, but,  just so you know, if you can buy US style lights, the LOR CTB16PC controllers are voltage selectable by a small jumper inside the controller box, just moving the jumper selects whether the controller operates on 120VAC or 240VAC.   So the cost doesn't change because it's 240VAC, again, just requires moving a small jumper block.

 

So if you can get US lights with US style power plugs, along with getting a supply of male and female US plugs, along with a stepdown transformer to run the Controller at 120VAC with US style dangles{cords}, or if you have UK style lights that operate on 240VAC WITHOUT a built in controller, you'd be good to go, but you will have to supply your own UK style dangles{cords} for the controller.

 

Surprised no one has told you this, but what you want to do is possible in the UK using US style LED strands.   Our LED strands DO NOT have controllers built into them unless you're buying the type that LED strands that are multi-functional, ie, fade, twinkle, flash.  Those are the types you want to avoid from US LED's as they aren't the type of US strands you'd want, although they can be used with an LOR CTB16PC, but strictly only full ON or OFF commands, these types are more for static displays to add a little "motion" to them.  Just not ideally suited for a fully animated musical dislay.

 

Hope this helps you with some of your questions and concerns.

 

[JohnF]

It does, thank you

[EmmienLightFan]

4 hours ago, Orville said:

Hi John,  I'm not in the UK, but,  just so you know, if you can buy US style lights, the LOR CTB16PC controllers are voltage selectable by a small jumper inside the controller box, just moving the jumper selects whether the controller operates on 120VAC or 240VAC.   So the cost doesn't change because it's 240VAC, again, just requires moving a small jumper block.

 

So if you can get US lights with US style power plugs, along with getting a supply of male and female US plugs, along with a stepdown transformer to run the Controller at 120VAC with US style dangles{cords}, or if you have UK style lights that operate on 240VAC WITHOUT a built in controller, you'd be good to go, but you will have to supply your own UK style dangles{cords} for the controller.

 

Surprised no one has told you this, but what you want to do is possible in the UK using US style LED strands.   Our LED strands DO NOT have controllers built into them unless you're buying the type that LED strands that are multi-functional, ie, fade, twinkle, flash.  Those are the types you want to avoid from US LED's as they aren't the type of US strands you'd want, although they can be used with an LOR CTB16PC, but strictly only full ON or OFF commands, these types are more for static displays to add a little "motion" to them.  Just not ideally suited for a fully animated musical dislay.

 

Hope this helps you with some of your questions and concerns.

 

The CTB16PC is more expensive, but so are our lights ($20 a string sometimes). 

Shipping is expensive though.

 

[Orville]

You're welcome John.

I know the other folks are giving you excellent advice as well, and trying to save you some $$, because of the shipping costs, but just wanted to give you answers to some of the info you'd asked in your OP.

Pick the best route you'd think would suit your needs the best.  That is the best advice any of us can really give you, it's all a matter of end users choice on how and where they want to go with their display.

 

As for cost of LED strands:

I think the highest I've paid here in the US for a LED strand was at our local Lowes, 200 ct strand on a spool, multicolored, somewhere around $25-$30.  Lower counts range from $5.00-$20.00, $20.00 usually being for 100 or higher count strands.     $20 just for a small strand{under 100} of LED lights is a bit expensive!
 

As for shipping charges:

What I don't get on the shipping charges is this, the US IMPORTS it's LED strands all made in China and we pay at big box or outlet stores anywhere from $5.00 up to $20.00{occasionally higher for 50-100+ count strands, but rare} depending on the count.  So you'd think on that score, we in the US would also be paying exorbitant shipping charges!  

Don't know why the UK can't get US Style lights for the same price point direct from China, since it's still a long way to get them to the US or the UK from China. I'd think the UK would be a bit closer to China than we are in the US and that shipping would be cheaper to the UK.   

Never have understood why some places to ship to are so astronomically high, just doesn't make sense that it should cost what it does.   Guess it'd be nice if someone could come up with some type of decent, inexpensive flat rate for shipping across the oceans and the seas!

Edited February 25, 2016 by Orville

[EmmienLightFan]

14 minutes ago, Orville said:

You're welcome John.

I know the other folks are giving you excellent advice as well, and trying to save you some $$, because of the shipping costs, but just wanted to give you answers to some of the info you'd asked in your OP.

Pick the best route you'd think would suit your needs the best.  That is the best advice any of us can really give you, it's all a matter of end users choice on how and where they want to go with their display.

 

As for cost of LED strands:

I think the highest I've paid here in the US for a LED strand was at our local Lowes, 200 ct strand on a spool, multicolored, somewhere around $25-$30.  Lower counts range from $5.00-$20.00, $20.00 usually being for 100 or higher count strands.     $20 just for a small strand{under 100} of LED lights is a bit expensive!
 

As for shipping charges:

What I don't get on the shipping charges is this, the US IMPORTS it's LED strands all made in China and we pay at big box or outlet stores anywhere from $5.00 up to $20.00{occasionally higher for 50-100+ count strands, but rare} depending on the count.  So you'd think on that score, we in the US would also be paying exorbitant shipping charges!  

Don't know why the UK can't get US Style lights for the same price point direct from China, since it's still a long way to get them to the US or the UK from China. I'd think the UK would be a bit closer to China than we are in the US and that shipping would be cheaper to the UK.   

Never have understood why some places to ship to are so astronomically high, just doesn't make sense that it should cost what it does.   Guess it'd be nice if someone could come up with some type of decent, inexpensive flat rate for shipping across the oceans and the seas!

We can get US lights directly from China. But the quality of those lights is much lower than lights from the US.

 

We can get our low voltage lights directly from China for low prices.

Small strings are available but are more expensive than US ones.

 

I like low voltage for safety as well.

 

[robongar]

10 hours ago, Orville said:

Hi John,  I'm not in the UK, but,  just so you know, if you can buy US style lights, the LOR CTB16PC controllers are voltage selectable by a small jumper inside the controller box, just moving the jumper selects whether the controller operates on 120VAC or 240VAC.   So the cost doesn't change because it's 240VAC, again, just requires moving a small jumper block.

 

So if you can get US lights with US style power plugs, along with getting a supply of male and female US plugs, along with a stepdown transformer to run the Controller at 120VAC with US style dangles{cords}, or if you have UK style lights that operate on 240VAC WITHOUT a built in controller, you'd be good to go, but you will have to supply your own UK style dangles{cords} for the controller.

 

Surprised no one has told you this, but what you want to do is possible in the UK using US style LED strands.   Our LED strands DO NOT have controllers built into them unless you're buying the type that LED strands that are multi-functional, ie, fade, twinkle, flash.  Those are the types you want to avoid from US LED's as they aren't the type of US strands you'd want, although they can be used with an LOR CTB16PC, but strictly only full ON or OFF commands, these types are more for static displays to add a little "motion" to them.  Just not ideally suited for a fully animated musical dislay.

 

Hope this helps you with some of your questions and concerns.

 

Re you quote about the difference between a 110volt and a 240volt, by just moving the jumper blocks.

I purchased a kit last year, when building it, there was a different set resistors for the 110 volt (220 ohm) & 120volt (330 ohm) that went along the sides of the Triacs. 

On pre-assembly notes, #8 mentions if you are use this kit for a 240 volt country, use one set of resistors. If using In a 110volt country use the other set.

also, I believe there would be a different transformer, mine has "2 x 115v printed on it. I'm pretty sure a 240 volt system would have 240v printed on it.

so I don't think, just moving the jumper blocks is correct 

Edited February 25, 2016 by robongar

[JohnF]

Thank you all so much for your advice and help!

So, the singing christmas trees I have ordered were from Holiday Coro and our their website they state "We do NOT recommend 5mm or "rice micro" LED lights as they may not hold as well in the coro:"

However, as nearly all LED strings sold in the UK are these 5mm ones, (and I have about 20 strings of warm white ones from my static display.

I think my best bet will be to get delivery of the Coro, see if I can get these bulbs to hold in place and look ok, and if so, can source these easily and cheaply in the 24vAC variety and run off 30v DC.

If the 5mm bulbs really can't be made to work, I will then need to look at options to source the M5 bulbs either the 24v DC from Australia or 110v from US.

Coro should arrive end of May as purchased in pre-sale, so will hold off final decision till then, you have all really helped me in getting to this point, and potentially saved me hundreds of $$ so once again thank you very much!!

 

[EmmienLightFan]

53 minutes ago, JohnF said:

Thank you all so much for your advice and help!

So, the singing christmas trees I have ordered were from Holiday Coro and our their website they state "We do NOT recommend 5mm or "rice micro" LED lights as they may not hold as well in the coro:"

However, as nearly all LED strings sold in the UK are these 5mm ones, (and I have about 20 strings of warm white ones from my static display.

I think my best bet will be to get delivery of the Coro, see if I can get these bulbs to hold in place and look ok, and if so, can source these easily and cheaply in the 24vAC variety and run off 30v DC.

If the 5mm bulbs really can't be made to work, I will then need to look at options to source the M5 bulbs either the 24v DC from Australia or 110v from US.

Coro should arrive end of May as purchased in pre-sale, so will hold off final decision till then, you have all really helped me in getting to this point, and potentially saved me hundreds of $$ so once again thank you very much!!

 

Australia have identical lights to what are sold here.

 

The best idea is probably going dumb RGB for your faces. HolidayCoro sell the lights, the controllers are reasonable, and it is the same worldwide.

[Orville]

On 2/25/2016 at 8:21 AM, robongar said:

Re you quote about the difference between a 110volt and a 240volt, by just moving the jumper blocks.

I purchased a kit last year, when building it, there was a different set resistors for the 110 volt (220 ohm) & 120volt (330 ohm) that went along the sides of the Triacs. 

On pre-assembly notes, #8 mentions if you are use this kit for a 240 volt country, use one set of resistors. If using In a 110volt country use the other set.

also, I believe there would be a different transformer, mine has "2 x 115v printed on it. I'm pretty sure a 240 volt system would have 240v printed on it.

so I don't think, just moving the jumper blocks is correct 

Then there is a difference between buying it as a kit vs a "Ready to Go" unit, I purchased mine completely assembled and "Ready to Go", per page 6 of my LOR CTB16PC manual: 

Voltage Selection and Operational Jumpers

For 120 VAC operation, both jumpers should be installed on the header that is to the lower right of the transformer. See following picture.   {under the photo in the manual is this}:  For 240 VAC operation, only one jumper on the center two pins of this header must be installed.  {end manual, copied verbatim}.

So to change the voltage from 120 VAC to 240 VAC or back is simply changed by just moving jumpers.

My CTB16PC controllers are V2, but I don't believe this changed with the V3 controllers, should still be the same, just the jumpers may be in a different location on the newer units.  Again, mine were all purchased as "Completely Assembled ~ Ready to Go" controllers, not kits, so if you build it yourself, I guess they use different resistors than the pre-assembled ready to go straight out of the box controllers.   Otherwise I'd think the kits or pre-assembled units would have worked identically with respect to the ability to change the voltage from lower to higher and back just by moving jumpers.   

Apparently resistor values used in Ready to Go units are not the same as folks get with the kits, which does strike me a bit odd, I must say!

 

[robongar]

Certainly a bit odd, I agree. Maybe the kits are just older stock.

[JohnF]

19 hours ago, EmmienLightFan said:

Australia have identical lights to what are sold here.

 

The best idea is probably going dumb RGB for your faces. HolidayCoro sell the lights, the controllers are reasonable, and it is the same worldwide.

Australia seem to have a bit more choice.... The link Ozaz shared http://www.christmascreations.net.au/colour-mix.html was for the M5 style lights in 24v DC, not been able to find any of these style anywhere in UK. pretty much all of the LEDs here are the same as the ones I have like this http://www.lights4fun.co.uk/i/q/DNR-38/38-bulb-connectable-string-light-4m-extension-cable.

My original thought was Dumb RGB but Holiday Coro state that these will not fit in this design of tree, they do an alternate design suitable for RGBs but the spacing is much wider and the overall effect in my opinion is not as nice as for their ones designed for the smaller bulbs.

So, I know I have brought this situation on myself but hopefully will get the end result I am looking for