GFCI tripping issue

[Need more lights]

I thought it might be advisable to provide an update on my issue.

After I considered the GCFI Tripping issue closed (see my previous post), my display ran flawlessly for 5 nights ... then we had a soaking rain, and the problem started again.

I spent a full day troubleshooting the issue and once again determined that the issue was centered in channels 1-8 of the LOR Controller, which was running my SuperStar (channels 1-6).

So, I isolated the star (disconnected it from the controller), and the GCFI breaker tripped on 4 out of the 6 star circuits.  I opened the "waterproof" connectors on those 4 circuits, and they were completely full of water.  The connectors on the two circuits that worked were "mostly" dry.

 

So, I completely removed the "waterproof" connectors and just connected the extension cords coming from the controller to the wires coming from the SuperStar using "Wire Nuts"; then oriented them pointing up and covered them with a heavy plastic bag.  I haven't had a single GCFI trip incident since ... and it's rained almost every night.

 

I had suspected the connectors earlier, and had covered both ends (where the wires enter) with silicone sealant, but that apparently didn't work. 

The wire nuts solution was easy, cheap, removable, and completely reliable (at least for the past 2 weeks.

Just thought I'd pass this along in case anyone else has the same issue.

Apparently "waterproof" means something different to the manufacturer in Taiwan.

 

Hope you all had a great holiday lights season.

 

Wayne

 

Hi Wayne,

 

One thing I do to help with my GCFI issues is Dielectric grease. You can get it at any auto parts store. Every plug gets some.        

(including the open end plugs at the end of each string). Make sure you press it into the connections well. It solved most of my trouble...But heavy rain still shuts me down. Just the wet wires on the ground can and will cause a GFCI to trip. Try this anyway, might at least help. Good luck!

[k6ccc]

When will someone please make plastic (HDPE or PVC) tomato cages?

 

Now that would be nice!

[woodinvillejohn]

Let me weigh in on this.  I'm out in rainy Seattle and finally got my show to stop tripping.  First I don't think this has anything to do with your controller.  Some of the other responses were right on when they said it is from current leakage.  A GFCI trips when there is a difference of 5ma between the current going out and coming back.  I successfully run my show with GFCI's even when there is standing water.  But it took a long time to get this right.

First, you have GFCI breakers and not outlets.  Long runs of wire have both conductance and resistance.  In a nut shell this means that you can bleed very small amounts of power through long runs of wire.  Shorten your wire runs as much as possible.  It is better to use a GFCI outlet rather than a breaker because is closer to the light strings.  Next you need to break up your show into smaller parts off each GFCI.  The way to do this is to add GFCI outlets.  You can have multiple GFCI outlets on each circuit.  The way to make this work is to have the circuit supply each GFCI using the LINE feed.  You do not want to use the LOAD terminals to feed the GFCI's downstream or the first GFCI  will pick up the faults on all of the rest.  If you are not comfortable wiring, find someone who is to help you.  LOR controllers are split in two.  Channels 1-8 can run off 1 GFCI and channels 9-16 can be plugged into another GFCI.  Right away you have cut the load on each GFCI in half.

Try to keep extension cord runs short when possible.  I find that I do well to keep under 20 strings of lights on a single GFCI.    

The above addresses very small leakage through long runs of lights and wire.  These leaks are accumulative and add up.  Using the multiple GFCI's gets you around this.  I have 6 GFCI's on one of my circuits just to break everything up. and insure any leakage stays under 5 ma.

The next issue to address is if you have a serious fault that is above 5ma by itself.  Wire frames and mini trees on tomato cages are prime suspects, as is your mega tree.  Any short  on these metal objects goes straight to ground and will trip the GFCI.  To narrow it down try disconnecting  1/2 of your show and see if it still trips.  If so disconnect more until it stays on.  Then add 1 circuit back in at a time until it trips.  If you can find the one circuit that trips you can start looking at everything on that circuit.

I suspect you have all of the above going on.  Break up your show into multiple GFCI's and I bet these problems go away.

 

John

[Jim Hans]

What you found out is something that has been discussed in many places on this forum but bears repeating as the season heats up.  DO NOT try to wrap your connections.  Don't wrap them in electrical tape, don't cover them in plastic bags.... all this will accomplish is to hold water in the connection causing a trip!  On light strings, if you have an open female end, try to point it down so water drains out.  Connections to extension cords, lift them off the ground a couple of inches so they don't lay in puddles.  No matter how good you think you are "waterproofing" your connection, you will FAIL.. water will find its way in and then pool there because you have trapped it.

[k6ccc]

If you really want to keep rain away from a connection, you can cover them with something that is open on the bottom (so water can drain out).  One thing I have done is to cut the top off of two liter soda bottles - leaving just the bottom and the straight wall portion (about the bottom eight inches).  Turn the bottle upside down and tuck the connection into the bottle.  From a mechanical standpoint, one method that works very well is to hammer a stake into the ground and use a zip tie to hold the two cables to the stake.  Then slip the upside down bottle over the top of the stake and cables.  I have done a similar thing with a smaller bottle for a video over Cat-5 adapter for one of my cameras.  It's been outside 24x7x365 for several years.

 

[DieselMech]

If you really want to keep rain away from a connection, you can cover them with something that is open on the bottom (so water can drain out).  One thing I have done is to cut the top off of two liter soda bottles - leaving just the bottom and the straight wall portion (about the bottom eight inches).  Turn the bottle upside down and tuck the connection into the bottle.  From a mechanical standpoint, one method that works very well is to hammer a stake into the ground and use a zip tie to hold the two cables to the stake.  Then slip the upside down bottle over the top of the stake and cables.  I have done a similar thing with a smaller bottle for a video over Cat-5 adapter for one of my cameras.  It's been outside 24x7x365 for several years.

 

I don't want to high jack this thread but do you have a link to the cat 5 adapter by chance? I am very interested in it. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[k6ccc]

52 minutes ago, DieselMech said:

I don't want to high jack this thread but do you have a link to the cat 5 adapter by chance? I am very interested in it. Thanks

The ones I have in service were from a company that is no longer in business, but I did a search on Amazon for "Video over Cat-5" and came up with over 3,000 hits.  Take your pick - lots of choices.  The ones I am using have a barrel male and female that mates with the power for the camera, and then BNC connectors for the video.  There are MANY options depending on what you want or need to do.

 

[DieselMech]

The ones I have in service were from a company that is no longer in business, but I did a search on Amazon for "Video over Cat-5" and came up with over 3,000 hits.  Take your pick - lots of choices.  The ones I am using have a barrel male and female that mates with the power for the camera, and then BNC connectors for the video.  There are MANY options depending on what you want or need to do.

 

Thank you very much

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[a31ford]

Im gona go out on a limb with this one......

Metal structures DO indeed act like a capacitor in relationship to the wires strapped to them. (As k6ccc said) With that said...

Throw some snubbers on the lines that go to the lights on the megatree. This will stop the capacitive loading that those strings are causing and the GFI is seeing as a "fault" difference in potential between the the wires in the GFI.

[LightHouse_Papa]

Hi folks,

I have read some good information here.  GFCI protection.  25+ years as an electrician, I have written a few posts in regards to this matter on other sites.  I have experienced many different phenomenon in GFI trips (an acronym as it is used in the trade since it was introduced).  Here is something perhaps some do not know.  I read the idea of micro amperage leakage - that could happen and usually does.  There is a differential current sensitivity which the GFI functions on.  That is how it has come into existence.  The average GFI protected circuit should trip at no more than 5ma deviation.  Hospitals require less than 3.5ma in the GFI circuit or device.

I offer this test.  I have performed this test many times for others under controlled conditions as how and why a GFI functions the way it does.  Using a TWO conductor wire, bare ended, once placed in a plastic bucket of water protected by a GFI device, NOTHING.  It is drawing current through the water as shown by a amp meter.  The GFI sits there and keeps the power ON.  Why?  No differential current is present.  That water is getting heated, although slowly and would take many hours to boil.  Through a milliamp meter, a grounded conductor is introduced into the bucket of water.  Depending on the distance between the grounded wire and the two conductor cable, you watch the meter and by the time it hits 5-7ma, BAM!  The GFI opens and stops the flow of current.  AND it is not just the HOT leg, it is BOTH legs in a GFI outlet.  Breakers only open the HOT leg and are subject to all sorts of line noise too.  This can confuse the breaker.  I tossed out three GFI breakers (they would get buggy from time to time for no reason) for GFI receptacles.  I DO use ARC-FAULT breakers for bedrooms, as per NEC code, an upgrade since my house is 40+ years old.

I have leaned far away from 120v lights.  Yes, I do use them and they are subject to all sorts of rain, snow, ice and whatever God cares to toss at us here in Wisconsin.  I do maintain separation between AC powered lights and low voltage lights. I keep the AC and DC cables separated as much as possible.  I use oversized AC power feeds - my smallest AC wire is a 12/4 SOOW cord.  The AC wires have ONE IN and OUT - not chained by multiple extension cords.  If it is TOO SHORT, get the one that is LONG enough.  I use multiple GFI outlets which feed different things.  These are plugged into the garage on a NON-GFI circuit (well, it is a 120/240 arrangement) ... and feed my 120v LOR controller, two Arduino 120v controllers and MANY low voltage power supplies housed in a single cabinet that feed all sorts of controllers and LEDS.  I have had the privilege to work with, as a volunteer, many holiday displays in my area - they never go down.

GFI is simply designed to help keep PEOPLE safe.  I emphasize HELP.  It is in no means a life safety device nor is it categorized as such.  3-5ma @ 120v can do some serious damage to the body on the cellular level.  Depending how the current flows through the body, the path through vital organs like the heart, will dictate if someone survives a shock.  AND that could be something as low as 24 volts.  The CURRENT is what gets you.  The disruption in the electrical signals in your body is the cause of organ failure, usually the heart depending on the path and duration.  Your heart is not designed to beat at 60 times a second.  Hence, 60Hz is the frequency of AC power in US homes. 

Electrical shock that some folks have survived?  Some situations are NOT pretty.  Cells are destroyed but the result is days down the road before the end result is seen.  It is not pretty.  I lost some good friends in the trade due to equipment failure and bad judgement.  Myself, I recently survived a direct shock from a 480v VFD unit.  Lit me up real good.  120v is a joke in comparison - yup, I have been hit over the years on occasion - still here and willing to help others understand the hazards of electricity and how to PREVENT them.

I could go over the tests and procedures to determine which load is presenting a fault but that takes time, diligence and some equipment the regular homeowner does not have ready access to.

My primary job, as an electrician, is to keep people safe.  To understand the hazards and prevent electric from injuring people, including FIDO who pisses on the powered wire.  Yes, GFCI does protect animals too.

Anyway - here is my offer.  Use either a single GFI receptacle or multiple GFI receptacles to split up the potential current feedback that has obviously confused your one breaker fed from a NON-GFCI protected outlet. OR  LOOSE the breaker and replace the outlets it was protecting with single GFCI receptacles to feed the loads, it sounds like the breaker could be a bit twitchy.  And for good reason.  The manufacturer cares to cover their "ARSE".  So, with that thought, it gets GOOFY.  Without the right equipment to TEST the breaker AT the outlet you primarily use, and without more information (visual inspection) it is hard to identify the fault(s).

REMEMBER!  Every outlet exposed to the elements requires a non-conductive constant use cover!  Used to be you could use cast aluminum ... code changes!

If I rambled on ... sorry about that.

Good luck,

Eddie