USB485, G3-MP3, and CMB24D

[cowboy casey]

I have kinda figured out my problem but I am not sure exactly what that problem is, so here it goes....

 

I have posted about the problems I thought I was having with power in this post, along with other people that have the new CMB24D...  http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/32692-cmb24d-acting-up/

 

So I ordered a new Mango Killer power supply thinking power was the problem...

http://www.powermaxc.../pm412volt.html

PM4-100 PFC

 

While I was waiting for the power supply to get delivered I set up the G3-mp3 director Halloween..  plugged it into power from the CMB24D and the USB485, built a show and loaded up, no problems, set the time to start at 6 at night and disconnected the computer..  I forgot to unplug it from the 24D and later Saturday night I notice the LED's working outside...  I go out and check and everything is working perfect...  correct colors, all lights on when they are suppose to be and off when suppose to be...  Ch 6 no longer stuck at 100% (blue)...  

 

Last night I recieved and connected the new power supply to the CMB24D and the extenders..  Connect my computer to the card with the USB485, do a search and connect to the card...  slowly test the power supply, Didn't even turn the fan on with the card on 70% test full white for 5 minutes..  leave it at 70% and go check the LED's...  some are not even on, some are red, some are green, some are white....  so I figured not enough power with the extenders connected..  Disconnected the extenders and the same problem....

 

Today I remember it working with the G3-MP3...  I come home, connect everything back up including the extenders and start the G3-MP3 and go check the LED's and everything is working perfect...

 

I am using the USB cable and USB485 that was sent from LOR and everything seems like its working...  I was able to see the card and able to load the G3, make setting changes, you name it....

 

What does everyone think...  also, anyone that was having issues with there CMB24D, do you have a G3-MP3 to test with?  Could it be USB power causing the issues, could it be the power difference between USB (5VOLT) to the 13 volt the CMB24D is running at?

[Max-Paul]

well I thought that this had been corrected, so lets see if it has. Talking only about the USB cable from LOR between the computer and the USB485 adapter. Are there any nodules near the ends of the cable? And the cat 5 cable from the adapter to the controller. Is it laying right next to any A.C. power cable. The two need to be separated by about 6 or more inches. DO NOT run them together in a conduit.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max-Paul

[cowboy casey]

Max,

 

          I am using the USB cable that came with it, it has the nodules and is the only thing connected..  not even power to the laptop, running off battery..  using a store bought 4 foot cat 5 cable and also a 45 foot made cable, both tested and are straight through...  

 

same results on both cables in both situations..

 

does not work with usb with the 2 differant cables

 

both cables work with the G3...  just tested all 5 songs on the G3 and and they all work, connected the computer with USB and it does not work..  same cable

[Don]

What are the "Extenders" you are talking about? Can't figure that out from your posts. (Maybe I missed it.)

[cowboy casey]

What are the "Extenders" you are talking about? Can't figure that out from your posts. (Maybe I missed it.)

 

I found these http://www.ebay.com/itm/161288016172 and they work great...  they are very small, not waterproof and kinda delicate...  I broke 1 trying to remove it from my soffet and 1 died after about a week (stuck on) and had to be replaced...  I used heat shrink over them to give them some stability and waterproof... http://www.ebay.com/itm/261490406355  I also used shrink wrapped connectors that work awesome to bring power to them... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CVPE1E

 

here are some pic's

 

I am going to do a how to with pictures for everyone, I just haven't started it yet..  

Edited October 15, 2014 by cowboy casey

[larryk5]

Sounds like the sub port on your computer isn't pushing a strong signal. You also said you are using battery power, try plugging it in! If nothing else try a powered UBS hub, that may help!

[cowboy casey]

That could very well be...  I have tried it with and without the laptop plugged in and it does the same...  It really depends on how dell wired the USB to the Motherboard...  if they used a splitter and connected all 3 ports to 1 USB sub, then all 3 are sharing the 5V power...  I only have a USB mouse plugged in and that only takes about 15MA, so nothing really to talk about....

 

I can try a couple differant things...

 

1. change USB ports and configure it to use the new port

 

2. use a differant computer

[oilmoney]

I kind of noticed the same thing last night. Running 3 CMB24D's and 2 are running flawlessly and the 3rd only has 4 of the 8 lights coming on consistantly. Only difference between the 3 is a different power supply on the 3rd. Going to swap it out today and see if it makes a difference.

[Max-Paul]

Ok, you answered directly the first question and your cable does have the nodules. Ok, didnt really answered about the cat 5 cable and the A.C. power lead going to the power supply. But sounds like you are doing this testing in the living room or basement (not as it would be installed during the show)?

 

Ok, getting better picture of how things are set up. Sound like the difference between using the laptop and the director card is what is on the end of the cat 5 going to the controller. I also presume you are saying that the computer and the director card are both at Point A and the controller is at another location, point B? I was about to say that the USB adapter is the problem. But you say that you can control the lights in the hardware utility. Reaching here, is it possible that the female RJ-45 socket on the adapter be bad (intermittent)? And it does not show up while using the HU but drops packets in a show?

[cowboy casey]

Max,  I alaways forget to be "exact" when replying to you.. 

 

I have the 24D card in my attic, I have tested with the short cable directly to the card.  no power cables near the cat5 cable connected to the computer/usb485 and the G3, the G3 works and the computer/usb485 does not.

 

I have another cable ran down into my room out of the attic (45 feet) that is running next to power but not close...  it has the same outcome, G3 works and the computer/USB485 does not..

 

I know this only shows the card and some connections, but you can see the longer cat5 cable connected.

 

 

I can control the lights with the hardware utility, but they do not work correctly,,  if i turn all channels on at 80% they should all be on white...    I get red on 1 channel, blue on 2, green on 1, white on 2 channels and the rest not on at all...  if I turn all channels off, and try it again, it will be differant, IE: 3 on blue, 2 on red, 1 green, 3 white and the rest off... 

 

When I play a show from my computer (same 1 loaded on the G3)  it does not play correctly, it is hit or miss on the colors and also what channels are on and off...

 

It really sounds like the USB485 is not getting the power it needs to send the correct signals to the CMB24D..  if the hardware utility tells the USB485 to send 80% power to all channels and when the signal is read by the 24D it only receives 40% or something like that, or it receives a partial signal....

 

Because the G3 is recieving power from the CMB24D card at 13 volts, it has the power to send the signal back with no issues..

 

Are we on to something or am I way off base?

[TonyD]

What is the network speed set to when you have the usb45 connected? Is it 57.6K or higher than that?

[cowboy casey]

I will have to check, I cant remember if I set it to recommended 57.6 or the next higher...

[Max-Paul]

Just going by your reports. I seem to remember that all works well with the HU and RS485 adapter if you keep the intensity below 80%, right? Its not until you go over 80%. if I have that right, then I would not think it is a matter of baud rate 57.6 versus 115K. it takes more power if you go over 80%. Thus a power issue. Are your wires to small? or do you have a loose or dirty connection somewhere? Or is the voltage going to low and causing a problem with a Pixel RGB driver chip (WS2011 type chip)? What is different between using the RS485 adapter and the G3? Does the G3 have a test program installed that controls all of the channels to go to say 85%? Have you tried to control all of the channels to go to say 50% when connected to the computer via the HU? If you can get the lights to work right with the computer when controlling at 50%. And the lights go nuts if running a 85% or 90% with the G3. Then I will be almost 100% certain the problem is some form of power problem. Wires to small or loose or dirty connection somewhere.

 

Please post another photo of the CM24 board with fuses in middle and power leads from power supply. I would like to see the power terminals. Thanks

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max-Paul

[TonyD]

I'm thinking if everything works fine with the G3 (he said he runs the same show on the G3 as on the computer) then the power and wires all have to be good. Only when he connects the USB485 does he get inconsistent results. And he gets this with the HU or SE. My money's on the USB485 or cable connecting it being bad. I can't remember if he tried a different USB port but i think he did and it didn't make any difference.

[cowboy casey]

Hey everyone,  I hope all this is helping other people...  

 

So, I did some testing last night..  All tests were run from the 45 foot cat5 cable with the same exact show, made to test intensity/power level..  I made a test show, starting at 50% intensity white for 10 seconds, pause 3 seconds, then 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100%...  

 

I checked the speed and the G3 was at 115K and my computer was at 57K, so I changed my computer network to 115K... I also changed the USB port that the USB485 was connected to...

 

Channel 6 (blue) is now dead and not working at all, it was stuck on 100% and needs to be fixed..  I am going to change that card out with the other card I have and send this 1 in to be fixed..

 

The test:  uploaded to the G3 and ran the show..  all channel's and lights came on at all intensity levels..

 

I ran the show from my computer and had the same results, all channel's and lights worked...  

 

So, does this mean that just using the hardware utility to test them is probably what is not working?  could it be the speed of the network? is the hardware utility running at 57K?

 

I seem to remember that all works well with the HU and RS485 adapter if you keep the intensity below 80%, right? when using the hardware utility, that is correct.. Its not until you go over 80%. if I have that right, then I would not think it is a matter of baud rate 57.6 versus 115K. It seems to make a difference...  it takes more power if you go over 80%. Thus a power issue. Are your wires to small? I am running 14 gauge from the power supply to the board and 2 cat5 solid core wires per channel to the RGB strips and 4 cat5 wires running power to the extenders...  from the pictures below, do they look to small, I was thinking the same thing but just not sure..  or do you have a loose or dirty connection somewhere? it is all brand new and in the attic or under the eve, so no dirt and I have triple checked connections for anything loose.. Or is the voltage going to low the power supply is powering the card at 13.6 volts, it is dropping to 12.3 volts at the beginning of the RGB strip and extenders and about 9 to 10 volts at the end of the rgb strip... and causing a problem with a Pixel RGB driver chip (WS2011 type chip)? Nope, Just dumb 5050 RGB's  What is different between using the RS485 adapter and the G3? That is exactly what I am trying to figure out and my question.. Does the G3 have a test program installed that controls all of the channels to go to say 85%? now it does..  Have you tried to control all of the channels to go to say 50% when connected to the computer via the HU? Yes, I have tried that and it kind of works, sometimes it will control them but most of the time it does not do it correctly.. If you can get the lights to work right with the computer when controlling at 50%. And the lights go nuts if running a 85% or 90% with the G3. Then I will be almost 100% certain the problem is some form of power problem. Wires to small or loose or dirty connection somewhere.

 

here is that power supply, its a beast..     the fan did finally turn on at 99 degrees for about 2 minutes while running a show and then shut off.. at the bottom right you can see my outdoor temp sensor to see the temp's in the case.

 

here are the connections to the extenders, the wire is 14 gauge to the cat5 cable

 

here is the connection to the power supply

 

this is an overall picture of the donor computer case..  you can kind of see the air conditioning tube providing cooled air to the case..

 

close up of the CMB24D power connections

[k6ccc]

I am personally not a big fan of using Cat-5 cable for power (unless it's really low power).  I just did a lookup to see really what the cross sectional area of the various wire sizes is.  A 24 AWG wire has a cross section of .205 square millimeter.  If you bundle 8 of then (using all 8 wires functionally as a "single conductor"), it is 1.640 sq. mm.  That is very slightly smaller than a 15 AWG wire.  If you use 4 wires (2 pair for + and 2 pair for -, for example), each bundle is slightly less area cross section than 18 AWG.

 

Since you state that you are loosing 1.3 volts between the power supply and the beginning of the strips, and another 3 volts in the strip, I think that is the biggest part of your problem.  I would be looking at better wire.

 

Let me tell you what I'm doing (or will be in the case of what is not completed).  This is all for my year round landscape lighting.

 

I have three 6 brick tree rings that have RGB dumb strip around the inside.  For two of the rings, the strip is exactly 5 meters long and on the 3rd ring, the strip is 6 meters long.  In all three cases, I feed power to both ends of the strip.  The wire is between 15 and 30 feet of 14 AWG from the DC card to a splice about 2 feet from the two ends of the strip and then 14 AWG from the splice to the two strip ends.

 

I also have a total of 38.3 feet of 48 LED / meter WS2811 smart strip that is configured as 20.3 feet on one strip and 18.0 feet on the other strip.  In both cases I am feeding power at one end and also about 6.75 feed from the far end.  The power is all 12 AWG except for the last 5 feet to the strips.

 

This weekend I will get the first of two 32 foot long 30 pixel / meter WS2811 strips (just under two 5 meter strips).  They will be feeding power from each end, and if I find that there is too much voltage drop, I will also feed the middle.  The near end will have less than 3 feet of 14 AWG from the E6804, and the far end will have about 35 feet of 12 AWG and then a couple foot pigtail of 14 AWG to the strip.

 

Lastly I will have two 30 LED / meter WS2811 strips that will be almost 60 feet long.  Those will be fed with about 10 feet of 14 AWG at the near end, and at the far end and at the joint between each 5 meter strip with 12 AWG with a short pigtail of 14 AWG that is connected to the strip.  The 12 AWG sections will vary from about 25 to about 70 feet long.

[cowboy casey]

Jim,

 

      Thanks for the info, and the push...  Max and I have been thinking the same thing and I really think that is the problem...  

 

What does everyone think about this wire for controlling the RGB from the CMB24D..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-split-system-control-wire-14-4-Gauge-stranded-wire-500-Ft-/321414723523?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad5cf77c3

 

and I already have this wire that I could use to provide power to the extenders..  but it is also 18 gauge and that is basically what I am using now, 4 wires cat5 for positive and 4 wires cat5 negative...  I bought the 18 gauge for the 3 and 5mm leds for my signs...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151051205625?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[k6ccc]

That 14/4 is essentially what I am using for mine.  I got mine from Monoprice.  For the dumb strips I use colors as follows:

Red = Red negative

Green = Green Negative

Black = Blue Negative

White = +12 common

 

For the smart strip, I used:

Black and White = Ground

Red = +12

Green = Data

Yes, getting both the Black and White onto the center ground connection of the strip was a little hard, but putting one on the back side made it not too bad.

 

A lot of the longer distance power was 12 AWG THHN, and for a few places I used larger wire than that.  For example from the 70A 5V power supply to the E682 that runs my pixel tree and star, there are two runs of 10 AWG for +5 and two runs for ground.  Between the two 12V power supplies in my front yard to the power fuse panel about 10 cable feet away, there are also two runs of 10 AWG.

 

The longest 12V run is about 75 feet from the power supply to the one of my E6804s that is very lightly loaded.  That is all 12 AWG THHN, but I may change that to a 24V power supply and a regulator that drops it to 13.6 in the box with the E6804.

[Max-Paul]

I cant say why I dont like the idea of using say more than two wires tied together to up the amount of current in a circuit. But I will tell you this. Maybe it is superstition, but I rather use one large wire than multiple small wires. I am not a engineer and I can see what Jim is saying about the added cross is supposed to equal a larger wire. Something deep down says that Jim might be missing something with the resistance not reciprocating like two or more resistors do on a circuit board. But as I stated, I am not a engineer.

[k6ccc]

Max, I'm with you about not wanting to parallel a bunch of wires to increase capacity. As long as there is a good connection at both ends, it does add up, but the large number of connections does increase the possibility of a missed connection.