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Wire Type Does Matter


Jeff Messer

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After running a few test last weekend at the TENN. mini we did find out that E1.31 over different wire does matter. The test was completed using both San Device and P12s using 12v-ws2811 pixels.  I had some 18 gauge wire used to wired thermostats for AC units at home which has copper and 7 strands make up one conductor. The other wire is flat 3 conductor wire called flat pixel wire which has many smaller strands of wire. Tested started at 40 feet to make 50 RGB light up using LOR.

 

Both Sandevice and J1sys are great products and I own several of each. This test is not to bash either one of them but only for many of us newbies using any type of wire from the device to the pixels.

 

Test Mode- Thermostat 18 Gauge wire at 40 feet on both cards- No lights came on in test mode.

Test Mode- Flat pixel wire on SanDevice at 40 feet only first light on string lights up even after reset.

Test Mode- Flat pixel wire on J1sys at 40 feet speed at 2500 the full string lights up.

 

Results tell me to replace the thermostat wire with the new wire ordered after the test to hit the long runs that I have. Locations that I have long runs without added extenders will use the P12s for them. I would have never believed the wire would make that much difference. I had to cut the Thermostat wire down to 15 feet to make it work. UNREAL !!! Thanks to Doug for all his help that night....

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Wow...good to know Jeff...I'm using exactly what you described J1SYS/ WS2811 Flats  with 18G wire....but only 10' runs...and no problems but I was wondering how much I could stretch that....

 

Thanks for the useful info..........as always

 

 

Eddie Z

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This is not a surprise.  I am glad you tested it, but by no means was the results out of the realm of expected given the wire used.  T-stat wire is NOT data transmission wire.. Flat wire is closer but still not data transmission wire. 

 

Did you by chance test it with the wire being soaked in water to simulate rain?  

Edited by plasmadrive
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We did not get the wire wet. Last year Jeff and I seen similar results when it came to distance to the first pixel without using a null pixel. Andy on the other hand was getting a lot further distance.

 

We had the wire Andy was using, Jeff brought his wire and I had my wire. Jeff's wire and my wire were quite similar other than his was 4 wire and mine was 2. 

 

Just changing the wire out made a huge difference in the distance to the first pixel. Different pixel types all worked about the same. Andys wire was a smaller gauge I believe but the strands were very small, our strands were large.

Edited by dougd
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This is not a surprise.  I am glad you tested it, but by no means was the results out of the realm of expected given the wire used.  T-stat wire is NOT data transmission wire.. Flat wire is closer but still not data transmission wire. 

 

Did you by chance test it with the wire being soaked in water to simulate rain?

What type of wire would you consider to be data transmission grade wire? I'm not using either type of wire but also have not heard this term used to describe wire. I'm still learning a lot about all the different wire types and what does/doesn't work. Could you expand on that and give examples? Thanks in advance!

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What type of wire would you consider to be data transmission grade wire? I'm not using either type of wire but also have not heard this term used to describe wire. I'm still learning a lot about all the different wire types and what does/doesn't work. Could you expand on that and give examples? Thanks in advance!

 

Cables that are made to transmit data are usually twisted and sometimes shielded. They are also almost always low capacitance cables.  Given that the WS2811 protocol is not differential in nature you need all the advantage you can get from the cables.  You may want to look at Devicenet cables just for kicks.  I do know the resistor across the output of the driver is important from what we read last year.   I use pixel extenders and have had no data issues since I started using them, but that isn't for everyone because of cost.  For me the time to dink with the problems far out weighed the cost of the extenders. 

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I'm so far behind that I don't think I'll make it, but incase I do....I want to make sure something like this doesn't stop it. None of my distances from the controller to the first pixel or pixel to pixel is more than 15ft. Cable I plan to use is nothing special. 20awg stranded. Think I need null pixel or extenders? Thought I was good up to 20-30ft?

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I'm so far behind that I don't think I'll make it, but incase I do....I want to make sure something like this doesn't stop it. None of my distances from the controller to the first pixel or pixel to pixel is more than 15ft. Cable I plan to use is nothing special. 20awg stranded. Think I need null pixel or extenders? Thought I was good up to 20-30ft?

When I did the Plasma Icicles I had runs where I had no issue with a 20' cable and other runs where a 10' caused me grief.  For the most part, 15' of a twisted shielded pair should be ok if you use low cap cable.  I have also used flat cable with the outside being D+, then V+ then V-   That works too but is more susceptible to noise I think.   The 20'-30' thing worked well for many that were able to have a lower value resistor at the driver if I remember correctly.  But for others.. not so much.. The SPI data transmission is not something I am an expert on for sure. 

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Kevin,

The best is always to test. But I will tell you my results.

I am using the 4 pin extenders you can get from Ray...they are the 15mm version. I am using the 2811 12 mm bullet pixels and 2811 strips he sells. All are 12v. My ps is his 400 watt meanwell type. My controller is sandevices e682 prebuilt.

For the bullets I found that I am able to get 25 ft without need of a null. Using nulls every 25 ft I am able to get to 100 ft no problem. I did not test further as I needed only 75 ft.

For the strips I was only able to get 20 ft maximum. Null allowed 40ft but I stopped testing. I only need the 20 ft but was disappointed I could not use a standard 25 ft cable.

My cables are coming from a central location and include data and power.

I agree, cable matters. I also believe there is a compromise to be made with cost, controller location and parts availability. My display is up mid October to January and nothing is permanent. So I need things that install, break down and store easily that won't become unusable after storage. I also want items that will perform to my needs but don't break the bank. And one of my needs is central controllers. And cables that don't break when wound up for storage since they are required to reach 75 ft.

So while data cables, extra power supplies or controllers next to the elements all are great ideas and probably will perform better albeit not noticeably different to any viewer...the end result is these cables, supplies and controllers that I use meet my needs. They are readily available and very cost effective.

Your needs may require something different. So it is always best to test before installing.

Good luck,

Sax

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Kevin,

The best is always to test. But I will tell you my results.

I am using the 4 pin extenders you can get from Ray...they are the 15mm version. I am using the 2811 12 mm bullet pixels and 2811 strips he sells. All are 12v. My ps is his 400 watt meanwell type. My controller is sandevices e682 prebuilt.

For the bullets I found that I am able to get 25 ft without need of a null. Using nulls every 25 ft I am able to get to 100 ft no problem. I did not test further as I needed only 75 ft.

For the strips I was only able to get 20 ft maximum. Null allowed 40ft but I stopped testing. I only need the 20 ft but was disappointed I could not use a standard 25 ft cable.

My cables are coming from a central location and include data and power.

I agree, cable matters. I also believe there is a compromise to be made with cost, controller location and parts availability. My display is up mid October to January and nothing is permanent. So I need things that install, break down and store easily that won't become unusable after storage. I also want items that will perform to my needs but don't break the bank. And one of my needs is central controllers. And cables that don't break when wound up for storage since they are required to reach 75 ft.

So while data cables, extra power supplies or controllers next to the elements all are great ideas and probably will perform better albeit not noticeably different to any viewer...the end result is these cables, supplies and controllers that I use meet my needs. They are readily available and very cost effective.

Your needs may require something different. So it is always best to test before installing.

Good luck,

Sax

Sax,

Your setup is just about the same as mine. I wish I had time to test and I know that's going to bit me. I did test the controller and lights, but no cable distances. From the controller to the first pixel is about 10-12ft. There is 2 other sections that has 15ft spacing between pixels. The rest is all connected together. I was going to use a 3 wire stranded cable for the spacing but if that gives me trouble might use cat5 for the data. If using a pixel extended will help, I would like to get....but may not have enough time. You have a link for those from Ray or any locally in the US?

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Here is the link for 10'

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/3m-10feet-long-4core-BLACK-extention-cable-one-end-with-male-the-other-end-with-female/701799_804811293.html

I use 5, 10 and 25 ft extensions from him. I have heard that someone received some from him miswired so you should ohm out real fast when you get them.

He had a super sale on some 5 ft extensions and I got 100 of those. 50 each of the other sizes. So 200 total. Not one was miswired.

I use the 4 core so I can share the extensions between pixels and dumb RGB. To wire up the pixels I used his standard that he shares with sandevices for their pixel 1 system. Here is the link to a pixel set that shows the pin out.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100pcs-DC12V-input-IP68-WS2811-LED-pixel-light-all-black-wire-input-end-with-2m-long/701799_1603691720.html

As I always suggest, don't pay the Ali express shipping charges. Place the items you want in your cart then send Ray a message asking for shipping charges. I used to use fedex but they started having delays due to volume at the Hong Kong location. I now ship DHL and typical is 3 days from Ray to me here in Portland Oregon. Ray takes up to 5 days at times so it could go out to 8 or so. Shipping is typically less than the Ali quoted hong kong postal rate.

I used to solder and make my own extensions but this method is very cost effective especially when time matters.

Good luck. I don't think you have anything to worry about with your distances as long as you are 12 v. I don't have any 5v pixels so don't know how they would fare.

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For pixel runs with data and power I use Belden 1502R. And for runs over 50ft I use the same cable with a convertor on both ends. Max 485 module.

 

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Here's some additional good information for your consideration.
 
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php?title=Null_Pixels

http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/31635-using-a-null-pixel-to-gain-distance/
 

Edited by Bizywk
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For pixel runs with data and power I use Belden 1502R. And for runs over 50ft I use the same cable with a convertor on both ends. Max 485 module.

Good choice!

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I have not run into this distance problem you all speak of which leads me to two conclusions. My shack is much smaller than your houses or I am too lazy to do a run that long so I get another controller.  Running single CAT5 and power across the yard sounds so much easier.  

 

Back on topic I have had great luck with good old 18/4 speaker wire.  The longest data run I have done is about 25 ft but I have used it to inject power from the controller over 45 feet without issue.  Now I am sure Craig knows the voltage drop off of that run off the top of his head but I am more of a trial and error type of guy.  

 

Great info none the less

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sax? A 100 foot so you applied power at the string and not off the board correct? I power everything off the board as much as I can.

 

jeff

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I am using 18/4 wire and have an 18' pixel tree ... doing some testing this week I found that when the topper was on full white that I do have a flicker.

 

The odd part is that my topper has 2 halves .. each being 100 pixels ... only tthe top flickered but if I reversed the two plugs off my e682 neither of them flicker which

makes me concerned that there is something wrong with the e682 board.

 

Dave

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I am using 18/4 wire and have an 18' pixel tree ... doing some testing this week I found that when the topper was on full white that I do have a flicker.

 

The odd part is that my topper has 2 halves .. each being 100 pixels ... only tthe top flickered but if I reversed the two plugs off my e682 neither of them flicker which

makes me concerned that there is something wrong with the e682 board.

 

Dave

So I tested tonight and experience the exact same thing. Everything work perfect on the first run which I was very surprised, but notice the white flickered running a test sequence. But not on all legs. I'm running 2 SanDevices 6804 the first controller no issues. It's the 2nd controller and only 2 legs....1 and 3. Colors are good....it's just white. All legs on both controllers have an extension cable to the first pixel ranging from 4ft to 10ft. My display is at another location so I removed the controller and took it home to troubleshoot. Plug a strip directly into the controller and all 4 legs no flicker. Add a 10ft ext cable and again no flicker. Added a 20ft ext cable and flicker. Not on any colors....just white. But my actual longest length is 10ft. So why does it work at home but not at the display location? Possibly a bad cable somewhere along the line. I have 3 strips connected together on each leg and injecting power between the 2nd and 3rd strip. The 1st is powered by the controller. Could a bad cable beyond the first strip...say between the 2nd and 3rd...case the whole leg to flicker? And why on only white?

Dave...how long is the run between the controller and first pixel that causing the flicker. Did you try different cables and shorter?

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Best we could tell was the data did not like the 18/4 wire in my test with Dougd. Last year we saw the same results with 18/4. I did cut in a null pixel half way and cleared my issue up last year. I was also on a sandevice 683. We tested a month ago on j1sys (p12s) and the results were not really any better on 18/4 wire. We switched over to 40 feet of the flat wire and test mode on j1sys ran the 50 pixels. The sandevice 682 would only light the first pixel red. We applied power at the pixels and issue solved.

 

Flicker on my 16x84 pixel tree was seen last year with 2 p12r's running it. It was a speed change that clear my issue on it. The lead wire is 10 foot of 18/4 with pigtails. I found that the pigtails are not waterproof so I took them all apart clean them. I applied a zip lock baggie over them and zip tied them to the leg of the pixel tree. The tree ran flawless when I did the pigtails and cut the 18/4 from 25 feet to 10 feet to each leg.

 

Hope this adds to the conversation.

 

Flat wire will be my choice of wire from now on. I have a lot to change out and I had two boxes of 1000' feet LOL...

 

Jeff

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