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Traics continue to FAIL, why?


Jerry Ludy

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Another Issue that DevMike didn't mention:

 

Supply of electronics, LOR buys from "X" company, they in turn (X) buy from a supplier or mfg. overseas, HOWEVER, that supplier can be fooled (this is NOT LOR's fault), the supplier can be buying clone units (they look like they are the real manufactures, BUT are NOT). heck, even the supplier doesn't know they are clones, these are generally 3rd rate parts (again, this is NOT LOR's fault, they (LOR) are at the mercy of the supplier, and even the supplier can be "duuped").

 

Clone electronics have become a multi billion dollar industry, why ? that's easy... people always want stuff cheaper..........

 

This is NOT in any way a LOR issue, this is up the chain from them, I'm NOT saying they buy junk, what I'm saying is there is junk out there, and many companies or suppliers can be fooled.......

 

Greg

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Another Issue that DevMike didn't mention:

 

Supply of electronics, LOR buys from "X" company, they in turn (X) buy from a supplier or mfg. overseas, HOWEVER, that supplier can be fooled (this is NOT LOR's fault), the supplier can be buying clone units (they look like they are the real manufactures, BUT are NOT). heck, even the supplier doesn't know they are clones, these are generally 3rd rate parts (again, this is NOT LOR's fault, they (LOR) are at the mercy of the supplier, and even the supplier can be "duuped").

 

Clone electronics have become a multi billion dollar industry, why ? that's easy... people always want stuff cheaper..........

 

This is NOT in any way a LOR issue, this is up the chain from them, I'm NOT saying they buy junk, what I'm saying is there is junk out there, and many companies or suppliers can be fooled.......

 

Greg

 

Counterfeit products are indeed a problem when it comes to electronics.  You don't need to search too hard to find major companies that have had issues with components failing because they were counterfeited.

 

For example, Dell took it on the chin a several years ago when capacitors on their motherboards started going kaput.  The problem was traced back to a company that was producing Electrolytic Capacitors with a stolen INCORRECT electrolyte formula.  I believe Apple took a hit from it as well with their G5.

 

There is/was a problem with certain pixel products based on a certain chip.  My memory is very fuzzy on this so please correct me.  At the time a single company owned the patent for a chip that could be used to drive RGB pixel type products.  China immediately started making clones, but the problem was that many were seized by US Customs because they were counterfeit.  

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Yes. Triac tester here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-SCR100-Thyristor-and-Triac-Tester-/161061126371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257ffdc0e3

 

I have one and it works very well.

 

This triac is about the biggest you can get at 24 amps without outgrowing the circuit board.

 

Keep spares if you need to.

 

I have theatre type of dimmers that can use the bigger 40 amp versions.

But they have a bigger spread on the terminals and won't fit into LOR devices.

 

:rolleyes:   Thanks for the quick reply Ken!  I have GOT to get one of those!  That will make diagnosing issues MUCH easier!  ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Obviously whenever the word 'triac' is mentioned it generates a lot of post!

Now for my question.  I have about a dozen bad triacs over about 3 dozen controllers.  I have a kid with better eyes than me who has offered to replace the bad ones.  I can see them on the circuit board.  Is it possible to unsolder the old one and replace it with the new one without removing the board from the plastic case?  Or do I need to take it all apart and remove the board so he can get to the backside of the circuit board?

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Simply put, unless you've soldered before, it sounds like you haven't, its best to let LOR handle this for you. You must remove the board to access the bottom of it where the triac is soldered. You'll need a solder sucker or solder removal strip, plus the correct size of soldering iron for this board. If you use the wrong size, it either won't be hot enough, therefore the triac won't come out or too hot and you'll fry the board. Also, you need to know how to solder to insure you don't bridge other circuits or create what's called "cold solder joints". If you burn the board, you could easily ruin it.

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Agree, there is no way you will be able to get the solder on the back of the board to flow properly from the top. Also best way to do this is to take side cutters and try to cut the leads near the body of the Triac. Leaving something to grab a hold of once the solder has melted. Then come back and clean the board via solder sucker as mentioned and what is called solder wick that dgrant was trying to put name to. Ok this is just my opinion and I am sure that there will be others who disagree. I would use nothing less than 80 watts myself. But been building for the past 40 years. Still lift pads from time to time, but its been some years since the last time.

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I should have said also that with 80 watts. Do not stay on the joint more than 4 seconds. Or you might burn the board and lift pads as dgrant stated.  Give the kid an old board and tell him to show you his technique. Hey we all need to learn by doing and you will be giving the kid a chance to help and build his skills. But he has to agree to back off if you ask him to.

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Thanks Max-Paul, I certainly could not remember the name of that copper wicking strip. My mind drew a mental blank all of a sudden even though I could see it clearly. Normally for most cards, I use either an adjustible soldering iron with temp display or stick with a lower 35 watt iron. Not forgetting a card holder for better access!

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FYI.  By the way I'm posting with IE 11.0.1   Everyone should/need to know that any electronic failures (televisions, receivers, computers, etc, and LOR controllers are typically caused by excess heat.  I have the large heat sinks in all but one of my controllers and I've only had 1 triac fail in the last 6 years.  It's my believe that was caused by a short in one of my unfused C9 strings that had four strings connected together (about 6 amps total).  You can't overload Triacs.  You need to calculate/measure your current loads on all circuits if you want to help your controllers operate without trouble.

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Dang, all of this bad jue jue has hexed me. Now I have a string on at 100%. Opened the box and the Triac related to this string of LEDs does not have a screw holding it to the heat sink. I cant believe I forgot to install a screw. And did not give the box a good looking for the screw. I suspect that the LEDs (one string of 100 C6) was enough to blow it. Must have been some of the rain/ice that did me in too.  Oh well looks like I am going to join everyone else replacing a Triac. And then make sure it is screwed to my home made heat sink. I only run LEDs thus only a few amps. So my piece of 1.5" angle aluminum does the job. And it is just a bit longer so I can use it to screw into the box to mount it.

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Dang, all of this bad jue jue has hexed me. Now I have a string on at 100%. Opened the box and the Triac related to this string of LEDs does not have a screw holding it to the heat sink. I cant believe I forgot to install a screw. And did not give the box a good looking for the screw. I suspect that the LEDs (one string of 100 C6) was enough to blow it. Must have been some of the rain/ice that did me in too.  Oh well looks like I am going to join everyone else replacing a Triac. And then make sure it is screwed to my home made heat sink. I only run LEDs thus only a few amps. So my piece of 1.5" angle aluminum does the job. And it is just a bit longer so I can use it to screw into the box to mount it.

I just had my first one ever let go Christmas night, only had a single 100 count of incandecents on it. Fine times during the offseason now

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I should have said also that with 80 watts. Do not stay on the joint more than 4 seconds. Or you might burn the board and lift pads as dgrant stated.  Give the kid an old board and tell him to show you his technique. Hey we all need to learn by doing and you will be giving the kid a chance to help and build his skills. But he has to agree to back off if you ask him to.

 

WOW 80 watts?

 

I run 25 watts and it works fine for the normal component solder pads.

For the big power pads I use a 40 watt.

For the small LED strips, I use a 15 watt soldering iron with lots of soldering paste.

Desoldering, I use solder wicks.

 

Whatever works; everybody has their own method.

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Once you've soldered enough Triacs, you get a feel for how they should 'flow' when installed.  I personally use a cheap 40w Weller station.  I like to get a nice sized 'puddle' of solder onto the leg and pad, and continue to heat the joint for a few seconds.  All of a sudden you will see the puddle 'slump' down into the through hole - the point where there is enough heat to get a nice connection.

 

Of course, soldering is an art.  I lifted plenty of pads when I started.

 

As for removal, I suggest a cheap bulb-desoldering iron.  They are a lot easier to use than wick (which you should also have handy), or those separate hand opperated solder pumps.

 

The easiest way to lift a pad is by NOT completely desoldering something.  You should never 'rock' or 'wiggle' a component that is still stuck after 'desoldering'.  If it doesn't come out, then there is still solder present.  Rocking it is going to rip the pad clean off the board.

 

If you have a lot of parts to change out, I personally would invest in an inexpensive vacuum desoldering station or hot-air rework setup.  

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Once you've soldered enough Triacs, you get a feel for how they should 'flow' when installed. I personally use a cheap 40w Weller station. I like to get a nice sized 'puddle' of solder onto the leg and pad, and continue to heat the joint for a few seconds. All of a sudden you will see the puddle 'slump' down into the through hole - the point where there is enough heat to get a nice connection.

Of course, soldering is an art. I lifted plenty of pads when I started.

As for removal, I suggest a cheap bulb-desoldering iron. They are a lot easier to use than wick (which you should also have handy), or those separate hand opperated solder pumps.

The easiest way to lift a pad is by NOT completely desoldering something. You should never 'rock' or 'wiggle' a component that is still stuck after 'desoldering'. If it doesn't come out, then there is still solder present. Rocking it is going to rip the pad clean off the board.

If you have a lot of parts to change out, I personally would invest in an inexpensive vacuum desoldering station or hot-air rework setup.

If you have a lot of parts to change out, I personally would invest in an inexpensive vacuum desoldering station or hot-air rework setup.

Agreed. I use this one for all my different hobbies... and day job once in a great while... ;)http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-808-KIT-Contained-Desoldering-Internal/dp/B00FZPTEK2/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1388262288&sr=1-1&keywords=hakko+desoldering
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I like the higher wattage cause I can get on, and off in matters of seconds. This will help NOT transfer to much heat to the board or just if not more important is the component that is being soldered. But at the same time, if you linger to long, It becomes easier to damage the board. Don my my years of working on boards I have found that there usually is always going to be trace of solder left behind. Usually the pin or lead is not perfectly in the middle of the hole. Where the pin or lead is touching the wall of the hole, there will be some solder. When I remove things like I.C.s DIP I have been known to take a small screwdriver and push the pins towards the middle and then back out to the outer edge. That usually has been a good practices for me. I have always used one of those hand held suckers that are spring loaded. Rarely, but from time to time the wick. The wick takes more time and thus more heat to the board. Thats when I have lifted the pads, cause of to much heat.

 

Just my observations over the years.  But you are 100% correct, it is a skill, just like playing a musical instrument or painting.

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I've only done one TRIAC. But after I removed the heat sink I cut the leads at the body of the device. I rotated between the three leads and cut a little bit each time till I was through the leads (to prevent stress). After that I reflowed the solder, pulled the leads and wicked the holes.

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I got your PM with the ticket number, and you are absolutely correct -- rather than offer to send you some, we only gave you some links to buy them.  We really dropped the ball, I apologize for that.

 

I'm going to re-open your ticket and get some sent to you.

Hey Mike, never did receive these? Now that the lighting season is finished I'd like to replace them.

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Hey Mike, never did receive these? Now that the lighting season is finished I'd like to replace them.

 

Probably got lost in your eMail.  I re-opened your ticket and asked for your shipping address.  I didn't receive a reply.

Thu, Dec 5 2013 1:53pm - Mike DeMaria (Software/Visualizr What is your shipping address, please?
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Just to follow up... I found your email Mike in my old email account's inbox dated 12/05/2013.  I changed my email address in the LOR system for my license and I just assumed it would change it for everything LOR related.  I'll look into changing it for everything else now.

 

BTW, also found your new email from today in that same inbox.

 

Thanks again!

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