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| GFCI 's | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 12:08 am |
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51st Post |
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Max-Paul Member
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thanks Jeff for explaining what I was saying about Capacitive coupling. And I think Plasmadrive is addressing me. To answer your question. I have already explained how the design should be changed. But to answer your new question about installing a GFCI on a circuit that does not have a ground. First note that the number of houses without a ground is shrinking all of the time. I think all houses built after what was it mid 70s, and all refurbs require romax with ground wire. Ok make it so that it test for a ground wire as I have described above. With a label instructing the installer to tie the neutral and ground together on the back of the GFCI in case there is no ground wire. The best of two worlds. And in cases like these still need the label you described earlier. Now, whos GFCI is better tested? Please tell me you can see the benefit of checking the Ground circuit if it is in place. And that tying the ground wire to the neutral wire will still allow the GFCI to work on a non-grounded outlet.
____________________ George Simmons wrote: Sounds to me like maybe you better keep your dongles under control... Hey Carnic, your have been weighed and found ignored. Save your breath. 
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 12:49 am |
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52nd Post |
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Steven Member 
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Max-Paul wrote: And that tying the ground wire to the neutral wire will still allow the GFCI to work on a non-grounded outlet. But it is prohibited by section 250.6 of the NEC. Because a broken neutral connection would put hazardous voltage on the ground pin when an appliance was plugged in. This fault would not be detected by the GFCI.
____________________ LOR user since 2007 |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:46 am |
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53rd Post |
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plasmadrive Member
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Jeff I was asking Max-Paul. Sorry
____________________ WooHoo.. the edit is back.. time to chime in even more! LOL! |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 02:11 am |
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54th Post |
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Max-Paul Member
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Ok, can see that angle Steven. Well hell!! make a GFCI for non-grounded houses. And one for houses that have a ground in the romex. Wait, that would kill the benefit of those external testers. And that would put some Mexicans out of work making those testers.
____________________ George Simmons wrote: Sounds to me like maybe you better keep your dongles under control... Hey Carnic, your have been weighed and found ignored. Save your breath.
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 12:34 pm |
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55th Post |
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KStatefan Member
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Max-Paul wrote: Oh come on guys. Who drew up that picture does not know his rear from a hole in the ground. First look where have tapped into the hot and neutral. it is before the current sensing coil. Second, lets say that they tapped in down stream of the current sensing coil. We would have current flowing out on the hot and returning on the neutral. Duh come on that is just what a circuit is supposed to do. And the current out and back through the coil would nullify and no current would be produced into the coil and then into the electronics. Thus it would not trip. Now if they had tapped into the hot and ground. Then we would have current flowing out through the coil and no current coming back to null the hot current. Now we will produce a voltage in the current sensing coil and up to the electronics and then the shunt would open. I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:03 pm |
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56th Post |
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Don Gillespie Member 
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KStatefan wrote:
Well just because I am on holididays doesn'tmean I don't read the forums, by doing a search of GFI plugs in the search bar the newbies would have come accross a thread from last year that I started which basically gave the same info as this thread, so as not to make the same mistake again Kstatefan try doing a search and then we won't have to read your post about not posting, newbies are looking for answers and we all need to stay positive on these forums, for all the others that again took their time to re-answer the same questions again thank you, what would we do without the older wiser vets on here. 
____________________ Don't go away mad Just go away. |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:12 pm |
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57th Post |
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KStatefan Member
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Don Gillespie wrote: KStatefan wrote: So you are telling me that I am not allowed to reply to a thread without doing a search to see if the question was answered before?
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:23 pm |
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58th Post |
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SteveMaris Member 
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KStatefan wrote:Max-Paul wrote:Oh come on guys. Who drew up that picture does not know his rear from a hole in the ground. First look where have tapped into the hot and neutral. it is before the current sensing coil. Second, lets say that they tapped in down stream of the current sensing coil. We would have current flowing out on the hot and returning on the neutral. Duh come on that is just what a circuit is supposed to do. And the current out and back through the coil would nullify and no current would be produced into the coil and then into the electronics. Thus it would not trip. Now if they had tapped into the hot and ground. Then we would have current flowing out through the coil and no current coming back to null the hot current. Now we will produce a voltage in the current sensing coil and up to the electronics and then the shunt would open. I found it helpful. I like pictures. I am not the brightest bulb in the light fixture. I am sometimes amazed at the brains in this place. 
____________________ http://christmasonclevelandstreet.com/ |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:28 pm |
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59th Post |
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Don Gillespie Member
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KStatefan wrote: Don Gillespie wrote:KStatefan wrote: nope! read my post again I am saying be positive when you post
____________________ Don't go away mad Just go away. |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:31 pm |
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60th Post |
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Jeff Millard Member 
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KStatefan wrote: I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I think this discussion has been a good one. Each person's point has been made and argued without any hateful speech. It elevated a little and didn't turn into the name calling bullyfest that seems to exist only in the imagination of a certain unnamed admin. In my opinion the schematic diagram is accurate, but that's all that is: my opinion. However, I can sympathize with your desire to "not make that mistake again." Over the last few months each time I've indicated any form of opposition to a point someone made... however dangerous that point was, I've been openly told I am an internet cyber bully. Stripped of any dignity, I've begun to wonder if I might need to seek the assistance of someone qualified to exorcise these alleged "Internet cyber bully" demons lurking inside me... (In my best SNL Steve Martin: NYAAAHHHhhhhhhh!) Jeff
____________________ ...did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:33 pm |
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61st Post |
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Jeff Millard Member
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KStatefan wrote: I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Wait, you posted in this thread again... does that mean you did, in fact, "make that mistake again?" I'm so confused?!?  Jeff
____________________ ...did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:34 pm |
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62nd Post |
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dgrant Member
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My understanding of forums such as this are that WE are here to learn and assist each other in our similar interests. WE are not supposed to be here to put others down and generally tell people they don't know anything. I'm a very long time poster on a Corvette forum as one of my hobby interests are those cars, which I have two of them at this time. I'm also a Technical Contributor in there thanks to the knowledge level that I have concerning them. My being in that forum is there to help others who are asking questions and many times, its newbies. Yes, we too suggest the use of the "search" function which in this forum, I used with not so great results...therefore my newbie questions. In a "Newbie" thread listing, those of you with all the experience, knowledge and respect in this hobby, need to be understanding and willing to understand our "newbie" questions and point us in the correct directions. I appreciate someone clarifying information and giving me facts but I am not interested in effectively being called a fool. In every forum, there are good people and not so good people. I may not have the same knowledge level of someone else in a particular area but then again, I might have a considerable amount of expertise in another area. You can trust me on this one, I've seen and worked on things most people cannot fathom and these are highly technical and super complex systems way beyond someone's definition of capacitors. This is my first year and I'm jumping into this hobby in a large way and I appreciate the positive comments and the learning opportunities. As I mature in here from my own experiences, I'll be able to start assisting people as most of you do now.
____________________ 
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:45 pm |
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63rd Post |
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KStatefan Member
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Jeff Millard wrote: KStatefan wrote:You are not confused.I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground"
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:57 pm |
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64th Post |
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Don Gillespie Member
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KStatefan wrote: What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground" its posts like this that are not needed, if you do not want to participate then don't name calling is for two year olds, looks like you keep making the same mistake over and over and over.
____________________ Don't go away mad Just go away. |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 01:59 pm |
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65th Post |
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Don Gillespie Member
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dgrant wrote: My understanding of forums such as this are that WE are here to learn and assist each other in our similar interests. WE are not supposed to be here to put others down and generally tell people they don't know anything. I don't recall anyone calling you a fool try not to be so hard on yourself 
____________________ Don't go away mad Just go away. |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 02:02 pm |
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66th Post |
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KStatefan Member
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Don Gillespie wrote: KStatefan wrote:What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground" I agree.
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 02:17 pm |
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67th Post |
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David Rise Member 
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My mini trees are metal tomatoe cages. All of them are directly on the ground. Even with all the rain we get down here, I never had any issues with my GFCI's tripping. Jeff was extremely helpful with his knowledge of electricity when I built my portable sub panel for my show. This topic has been hashed through before many times here. It's always good to rehash things like this. It keeps folks from being injured or worse, dying from stupid mistakes that can easily be avoided. I'm sure most, if not all of us have some horror stories about getting zapped. Debates will always get a little heated, but only because one person is typing and someone else is reading it differently than it was intended. Don't get that confused with bullying. If we were all on a phone conference or even skype, it would be easier to explain things and get your point across more clearly. The erroneous comments concerning what a hole is or isn't, are inflamatory and unnecessary.
____________________ MILK-A-WHAT? You should crochet that on a pillow.  
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 02:27 pm |
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68th Post |
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KStatefan Member
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"You are not confused. What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground"" This is not being read as I intended. The second sentence is not directed at Jeff. Maybe I should have added to the end "but to make the same mistake again."
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 02:35 pm |
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69th Post |
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Donny M. Carter Member 
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KStatefan wrote:"You are not confused. I'm not sure Jeff does know his rear from a hole in the ground! Especially when wine is involved!
____________________ Elite? 
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 03:36 pm |
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70th Post |
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Jeff Millard Member
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KStatefan wrote: "You are not confused. I didn't read it as if you were saying I don't know my ...IE: "Jeff doesn't know his..." ...but I often type stuff like that and post... then have the same emotion you must've felt when you realized it could be construed in some other way than you intended. Before the "new and improved, better and more friendly LOR help Forum we used to have an edit button so we could correct these simple cases of mistaken sentances without having people post to defend the unintended victims of mistakenly and misdirected posts that accidentally might've said something we didn't intend. Not being able to edit these things can, and will... this thread being a perfect example of my point... cause a negative reaction and possible unfriendly behavior. So, I blame the lack of an Edit button for some of the unfriendly behavior in this discussion. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Not being able to deal with my OCD and correct the spelling errors I accidentally make... is a form of Bullying I take very personally. I'm trying to find ways to deal with my disease... like copy and paste into spel chukkers butt they can't due much four words the spel chukker thinks aye spelled wright because the words have too or more spellings. Painful for sure. I feel so abused. I still think this is a very good discussion, that can and probably will be used against us... Jeff
____________________ ...did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? |
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| Posted: Tuesday February 21st, 2012 03:48 pm |
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71st Post |
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LightORamaDan One of your administrators
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Edit: Unlike most forum users the admins do have edit capability so I am using that capability to say that this post was written prior to seeing Jeff's last post. I am considering what to do about edit but in the past it has been used to bate people or to cover up things. Agreed that we should not let a few bad apples mess up things for everyone so I am considering a change as far as the Edit function. I made a mistake earlier this day, wrongly accused this thread of being something it was not and then shutting down this thread. This has been a good discussion and I appreciate it. Things have not been as smooth at the forums as I would like them to be and I saw a few things and jumped to the wrong overall conclusion. There are a few things said that were not necessary but I had not taken the time to read the entire thread and took a few other things out of context. I thank Jeff for pushing things back on track and to KstateFan for the picture which was a helpful addition to the thread. As far as having ground involved or not in the testing circuit, we have now seen the pros and cons to such a design and we know how the GFICs in our homes work. As far as having more than one thread in the forums that covers this topic. I have no issue with that. It is an important topic and will now be easier for people to find in the future. I am going to close the thread now because it has gone beyond (what I believe were) the expectations of the OP. Last edited on Tuesday February 21st, 2012 03:58 pm by LightORamaDan |
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